WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.620 Welcome everyone to Metasode episode 2 and this is my co-host Arnab Deca. 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:12.500 Hello, good morning. It's, well, I can't really believe it's morning. 00:00:12.500 --> 00:00:18.680 No, you were supposed to say, and this is my co-host Ilya Benzila because I didn't introduce myself, pay attention dude. 00:00:18.680 --> 00:00:25.260 So hold on, hold on. You want me to introduce you and you will introduce me first, like a reflection? 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:29.000 Yeah, I was just playing with it. I thought it would be fun. 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.000 Okay. All right. Let's do it. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:46.560 Okay, dear listeners. Today is January 30th and man. Okay, so here's what Arnab and I have done. 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:54.200 We've recorded a bunch of episodes. So today is January 30th. Four of our episodes have come out, 00:00:54.200 --> 00:01:02.440 but we have like six or seven more already recorded. And they will be published up until through, I think, end of March. 00:01:02.440 --> 00:01:09.380 This particular Metasode, a reflection on Jake and Jonathan interview, we recorded back in November. 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.200 And so what I'm realizing now Arnab is that- 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.200 We have too much content. 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:25.940 Oh, well, that's one thing. But second, we are missing an opportunity to reflect on what happened after we published the episode. 00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:26.940 Yeah. 00:01:26.940 --> 00:01:31.820 So yes, we recorded the interview. Maybe a week later, we did our Metasode recording. 00:01:31.820 --> 00:01:36.820 And it's great because our memories are still fresh, so we can reflect pretty well. 00:01:36.820 --> 00:01:44.060 But what we miss out on is like Brian's episode, our episode number two came out, what, three weeks ago almost? 00:01:44.060 --> 00:01:45.060 Yeah. 00:01:45.060 --> 00:01:53.800 And then Brian mentioned us in his Tech Meme Right Home episode, Friday's episode, I think two weeks ago. 00:01:53.800 --> 00:01:54.800 Yeah. 00:01:54.800 --> 00:02:01.420 And then our downloads just skyrocketed from like 20 to three or 400. 00:02:01.420 --> 00:02:05.420 Skyrocketed is a relative term, but yeah, it did grow quite a bit. 00:02:05.420 --> 00:02:10.160 But it was exponential growth, man. In order of magnitude. 00:02:10.160 --> 00:02:17.740 Yes, it was awesome to see. And I think just on Anchor, it was showing about four or 500, right? 00:02:17.740 --> 00:02:20.660 There's more on the other platforms. 00:02:20.660 --> 00:02:31.980 So, and one thing that we really missed an opportunity on, I think, is to include Brian's introduction of our episode in his show, in our show. 00:02:31.980 --> 00:02:42.220 I want to keep that for posterity, because the way he introduced our show is like, we could just use this as an intro, because he's just so good that he has his radio voice and stuff. 00:02:42.220 --> 00:02:45.900 So, let's actually include it here, and then go into the next topic that we have. 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:54.780 No bonus episode for you this weekend, but if you fear missing my voice, guess what? I've got the next best thing. 00:02:54.780 --> 00:03:03.420 A couple months ago, I sat down with the hosts of the Metacast podcast. Metacast is the podcast about podcasting. 00:03:03.420 --> 00:03:13.260 And for two hours, not only did I tell them about how I do this show in great detail, but basically the majority of the show is me giving them my entire career story. 00:03:13.260 --> 00:03:23.500 So, if you've ever been curious about how I got to hear from film school to my dot-com-era startups to my web 2.0-era startups, it's all there. 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:24.380 Check it out. 00:03:24.380 --> 00:03:26.220 Final link in the show notes. 00:03:26.220 --> 00:03:29.420 Metacast, the podcast about podcasting. 00:03:29.420 --> 00:03:31.100 Talk to you on Monday. 00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:32.860 One, two, three, done! 00:03:36.860 --> 00:03:45.260 So, the other thing that we wanted to include into this episode that we would have missed out on if this didn't happen. 00:03:45.260 --> 00:03:57.020 Last weekend, I put together a tent in my backyard so that my kids and I could spend the night sort of camping in Florida. 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:59.020 Florida is a suburbia. 00:03:59.020 --> 00:04:02.060 But you are next to the Everglades, right? 00:04:02.060 --> 00:04:09.100 I'm next to Everglades, but, you know, Everglades is a river and there are alligators there, so I don't think it's a good idea to go camping there. 00:04:09.100 --> 00:04:16.380 No, no, but I mean like in terms of the feel for camping, you are pretty much next to the Everglades, so it makes sense, yeah. 00:04:16.380 --> 00:04:19.340 We had these crickets and, you know, the palms. 00:04:19.340 --> 00:04:20.540 Yeah, it was very nice. 00:04:20.540 --> 00:04:24.380 My younger one, he's four, he goes to bed at eight. 00:04:24.380 --> 00:04:37.820 So, obviously, eight is too early for me, but I can't leave him sleeping in a tent by himself because we have, you know, possums, rabbits, all that kind of, you know, life creatures running around, especially the possums. 00:04:37.820 --> 00:04:43.260 Possums are kind of scary with their huge teeth, even though they are supposed to be quite friendly and all. 00:04:43.260 --> 00:04:48.220 And you're next to the Everglades again, even though there is a wall separating everything. 00:04:48.220 --> 00:04:58.540 Yeah, that's actually true because like when I was sleeping in the tent, I was imagining what would happen if an alligator came in, what would I do? 00:04:58.540 --> 00:05:01.180 But yeah, that episode is already too long. 00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:04.780 So, by the way, I don't think you would do anything. 00:05:04.780 --> 00:05:08.140 It's up to the alligator at that point, what they want to do. 00:05:08.140 --> 00:05:10.220 Yeah, I think you're right. 00:05:10.220 --> 00:05:12.860 Anyway, okay, yeah, let's not. 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:16.780 Let's not make it like a two-hour episode, our first two-hour episode. 00:05:16.780 --> 00:05:19.740 Yeah, let's not make it Jonathan's podcast. 00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:33.260 Okay, so I had two hours from eight to 10 or so before my older son came to the tent that I basically had to do nothing. 00:05:33.260 --> 00:05:36.540 And my younger was sleeping, it's like dark. 00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:46.940 So, I put on headphones and started listening to Jonathan Courtney's, the guest of our last episode, a new podcast called The Unscheduled CEO. 00:05:46.940 --> 00:05:47.500 Right. 00:05:47.500 --> 00:05:55.660 I remember when we recorded the episode back in November, he wanted to do a sub stack, The Unscheduled CEO. 00:05:55.660 --> 00:06:03.020 So, what he ended up doing, his sub stack is called howtobusiness.substack.com. 00:06:03.020 --> 00:06:12.860 And then in early January, he also launched the Unscheduled CEO podcast, which I only learned about last week when I was writing show notes. 00:06:12.860 --> 00:06:17.420 And I was searching for Unscheduled CEO, and then I found that, but I didn't have time to listen to it. 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:19.260 I linked to it in show notes anyway. 00:06:19.260 --> 00:06:20.940 Actually, here's what I expected. 00:06:20.940 --> 00:06:28.860 So, I listened to the first episode, but I just couldn't stop. 00:06:28.860 --> 00:06:33.340 So, I kept binging on Jonathan's show and listened to the second episode. 00:06:33.340 --> 00:06:33.980 Right. 00:06:33.980 --> 00:06:39.340 Then next day, we had to drive somewhere, and I had spent maybe an hour and a half in the car or so. 00:06:39.340 --> 00:06:41.020 So, I listened to his third episode. 00:06:41.020 --> 00:06:41.660 Right. 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:46.140 And today, his fourth episode came out, and yeah, I listened to about half of it already. 00:06:46.140 --> 00:06:48.060 It's so good. 00:06:48.700 --> 00:06:55.580 And so, what we wanted to do here is to record a reaction to Jonathan's episode because there is 00:06:55.580 --> 00:06:58.460 something, there is definitely something to react to there. 00:06:58.460 --> 00:07:01.180 And well, we are doing this for a reason, right? 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:06.940 Because Jonathan is pretty raw in how he talks about stuff, and he's very transparent. 00:07:06.940 --> 00:07:08.220 So, he will also be very transparent. 00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:08.540 Yeah. 00:07:08.540 --> 00:07:12.780 When I listened to his second episode, which is absolutely amazing. 00:07:12.780 --> 00:07:14.620 He talks about work-life balance and stuff. 00:07:15.580 --> 00:07:19.580 I commented on his sub-stack that, "Man, this is so great. 00:07:19.580 --> 00:07:25.740 I think we will do a meta-sode on your podcast because of just how meta your first episode is." 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:29.900 And he's like, "Yeah, let me do a reaction on your reaction." 00:07:29.900 --> 00:07:33.340 And I'm like, "This is a perfect marketing opportunity." 00:07:34.060 --> 00:07:35.980 So, why wait? 00:07:35.980 --> 00:07:38.620 So, while his memory is fresh, we should just do it now. 00:07:38.620 --> 00:07:45.820 So, we are doing a pre-action so that he can react to it. 00:07:46.380 --> 00:07:47.660 A pre-emptive reaction? 00:07:47.660 --> 00:07:55.420 The summary is, this episode, we have already recorded the whole this fifth episode that you're 00:07:55.420 --> 00:07:56.140 listening to, Raoul. 00:07:56.140 --> 00:07:58.780 Yeah, the whole next one and a half hours that you'll be listening after this. 00:07:58.780 --> 00:08:02.140 The next one and a half hours after we are done with this part. 00:08:02.140 --> 00:08:05.100 That was already recorded in November. 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:09.660 And then we learned about this new podcast that Jonathan had talked about in November that he wants 00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:12.060 to launch, but had not come out yet. 00:08:12.060 --> 00:08:15.740 And so, Ilya listened to it and then I listened to the first two episodes today. 00:08:15.740 --> 00:08:23.420 And so, yeah, we thought, okay, let's actually, while our episode for Jake and Jonathan, 00:08:23.420 --> 00:08:27.820 the meta-sode is going out in two days on Wednesday. 00:08:27.820 --> 00:08:28.700 Today is Monday. 00:08:28.700 --> 00:08:35.020 And so, we thought, okay, let's just add a little bit of Jonathan's new podcast in there. 00:08:35.020 --> 00:08:35.980 Five to ten minutes, right? 00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:39.580 And ten minutes into the recording, we're just starting to discuss it. 00:08:39.660 --> 00:08:47.180 We are so Jonathan Corky at this point because that's what his podcast is. 00:08:47.180 --> 00:08:52.540 I'll try to summarize this because I listened to more of it than you did. 00:08:52.540 --> 00:08:58.540 He wanted to start a podcast where he talks about his business, NGA in Smart, 00:08:58.540 --> 00:09:01.980 and how he wants to take it to the next level. 00:09:01.980 --> 00:09:06.620 So, it sounds like what they're generating right now in terms of revenue is 00:09:08.060 --> 00:09:11.900 more than 5 million euros, but less than 10 million. 00:09:11.900 --> 00:09:14.060 And he wants to take it over 10 million dollars. 00:09:14.060 --> 00:09:19.260 And what I want to talk about today is the one simple rule 00:09:19.260 --> 00:09:24.060 that will double my revenue in 2023. 00:09:24.060 --> 00:09:29.580 So, in the first episode, he talks about things like, I think he calls it the 10-12 rule, 00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:37.660 where he is only engaged in decisions that will make at least 10 million euros in 12 months. 00:09:37.660 --> 00:09:42.380 And previously, and actually his team operates on the other rule, which is 1-12. 00:09:42.380 --> 00:09:45.740 They need to make 1 million in 12 months. 00:09:45.740 --> 00:09:50.780 So, he is kind of upping his game as a CEO to go to the next level. 00:09:50.780 --> 00:09:55.500 And in the second episode, he talks a lot about the work-life balance and how all of that is just 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:57.900 total bullshit and like a stupid concept. 00:09:57.900 --> 00:09:58.860 I think that's what he says. 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:03.740 And he reads a lot of comments from his sub stack. 00:10:03.740 --> 00:10:04.780 And LinkedIn. 00:10:04.780 --> 00:10:08.220 Yeah, it's about one and a half hours long. 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:13.100 And half of it is spent him rumbling about stuff. 00:10:13.100 --> 00:10:18.060 And the second half is spent him reading the questions and responding to those questions. 00:10:18.060 --> 00:10:23.340 And we can talk a little bit about how he does it because he does it really superbly, in my opinion. 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:27.900 The second episode was really interesting because he was actually reading somebody else's article, 00:10:27.900 --> 00:10:33.020 even two articles, and he's absolutely terrible at reading. 00:10:33.020 --> 00:10:39.820 And then we like how in the third episode, he's like, "Oh, I listened to how I read the article 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:45.420 in the second episode." And like, boys or guys, it's not going to get better. 00:10:45.420 --> 00:10:49.740 It's going to be like the same, like bad reading this time as well. 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:55.660 The first article that he read, that was, I think, the atomic, like how we break down 00:10:55.660 --> 00:10:59.820 everything into atomic parts and atomization of life. 00:10:59.820 --> 00:11:02.860 Yeah, that was actually pretty well read. 00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:09.260 The second one, my God, I think what happened is he was so excited about it 00:11:09.260 --> 00:11:12.940 that he kept interacting in every few seconds, at least in the beginning. 00:11:12.940 --> 00:11:16.300 But yeah, it was pretty nice. 00:11:16.300 --> 00:11:20.780 Do you want to talk a little bit about the live feel? 00:11:20.780 --> 00:11:23.740 Because he's clear about it, right? 00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:25.500 Like, don't give me feedback about this. 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:29.580 I actually want to talk about Pierce Brosnan, because you haven't listened to that one yet. 00:11:29.580 --> 00:11:31.580 No, I haven't listened to the third one yet. 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:37.420 In the third episode, he pulled an interview by Pierce Brosnan. 00:11:37.420 --> 00:11:37.820 Okay. 00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:41.340 And by the way, dear listeners, if you don't know who Pierce Brosnan is, 00:11:41.340 --> 00:11:43.420 according to Jonathan Corky, you are bad people. 00:11:43.420 --> 00:11:45.340 So I'm going to explain who he is. 00:11:45.340 --> 00:11:48.060 Actually, no, we can be less mean to our listeners. 00:11:48.060 --> 00:11:54.940 So we can say that Pierce Brosnan is an actor who played a bunch of James Bond movies, I think in the 90s or early 2000s. 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:55.260 Yeah. 00:11:55.260 --> 00:11:57.580 Yeah, he's a kind of nice looking Irish guy. 00:11:57.580 --> 00:12:00.300 Maybe that's why Jonathan likes him, because Jonathan is Irish. 00:12:00.300 --> 00:12:08.620 And he comments on all the things that Pierce Brosnan says, which is like, compared to his second episode, which was very focused on a specific topic. 00:12:08.620 --> 00:12:12.140 The third episode was very entertaining. 00:12:12.140 --> 00:12:13.980 Okay, you gave it away. 00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:19.820 Because he starts the third episode by saying the first one was like all sorts of chaos. 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:21.340 The second one was better than that. 00:12:21.340 --> 00:12:23.660 And maybe the third one is going to get more focused. 00:12:23.660 --> 00:12:25.660 The third one is an average of the first two. 00:12:25.660 --> 00:12:26.220 Okay. 00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:26.700 Yeah. 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:33.180 So the first episode, like when I start listening to it, I actually went to a coffee shop to get some coffee for my wife. 00:12:33.180 --> 00:12:39.260 And I listened to, I think, eight minutes of that episode in my car. 00:12:39.260 --> 00:12:47.980 And then I actually took a screenshot and I posted it on my Instagram saying that Jonathan podcast is really good. 00:12:47.980 --> 00:12:51.500 Eight minutes in, still no content, essentially. 00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:54.300 But the rumble is good. 00:12:54.300 --> 00:12:58.540 I actually looked at when he started talking about the main topic. 00:12:58.540 --> 00:13:00.620 I think it was about 27 minutes in. 00:13:00.620 --> 00:13:09.740 Let's play a very small clip of what the first episode feels like. 00:13:09.740 --> 00:13:11.340 The first 27 minutes of it. 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:12.620 I'm recording everything live. 00:13:12.620 --> 00:13:13.500 There's no editing. 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:18.860 I'm using this Rodecaster Pro 2 thing, which is not fucking working. 00:13:18.860 --> 00:13:20.220 Yeah, I've got braces. 00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:21.180 They're making noises. 00:13:21.180 --> 00:13:22.860 I can hear them in my head, you know. 00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:24.060 Let's do it. 00:13:24.060 --> 00:13:24.620 Oh, okay. 00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:25.500 I'm taking a sip. 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:28.300 Oh, what a piece of ****. 00:13:28.300 --> 00:13:31.100 Oh, this is very risky. 00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:32.780 Is my mouth making that noise? 00:13:32.780 --> 00:13:33.740 Let's see if this works. 00:13:33.740 --> 00:13:35.580 Maybe, I don't know how loud it is. 00:13:35.580 --> 00:13:40.380 I mean, I literally just figured out how to get the music working. 00:13:40.380 --> 00:13:42.620 Please only review it if you're going to give it five stars. 00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:44.060 I'm not looking for honest feedback. 00:13:48.380 --> 00:13:50.300 I like the live feel. 00:13:50.300 --> 00:13:59.020 He's openly saying that this is more like a, I think, a live, unedited stream of consciousness kind of podcast. 00:13:59.020 --> 00:13:59.980 It's like a Twitch stream, right? 00:13:59.980 --> 00:14:03.820 Yeah, it's like a Twitch stream in audio podcast format. 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:09.340 And I think I like his authenticity in that, like always. 00:14:09.340 --> 00:14:15.580 Maybe he does say like, oh, maybe this podcast will make $10 million someday. 00:14:15.580 --> 00:14:17.660 But I don't think that's the intention. 00:14:17.660 --> 00:14:22.460 The intention for him is to have fun, share his stream of consciousness thoughts. 00:14:22.460 --> 00:14:29.820 And it's an interesting topic, like holistically, like, and you and I asked him in our podcast episode last week, too. 00:14:29.820 --> 00:14:35.340 Like, how can you be the CEO of a company and be completely unscheduled? 00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:37.340 Oh, I don't have a schedule. 00:14:37.340 --> 00:14:37.740 Right. 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:38.780 It's very uncommon. 00:14:38.780 --> 00:14:41.340 So I think it's a great topic. 00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:50.700 And I won't say that I didn't enjoy all the technical problems and all that, which is, again, very authentic on brand for him. 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:53.580 But the actual meat of the episode, I did like. 00:14:53.580 --> 00:15:02.840 I do have some disagreements with a few things, but more or less, I think the work life integration that he's talking about that you and I have talked about, to be honest, too. 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:03.060 Right. 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:06.520 Like, this is how we want to shape our lives. 00:15:06.520 --> 00:15:07.160 Yeah. 00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:12.360 Actually, if you have disagreements with him, you might go to his sub stack, howtobusiness.substack.com. 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:12.720 Yes. 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:13.860 And leave that comment. 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:18.820 And he has a lot of comments there last time I checked. 00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:23.700 So he may or may not respond to yours, but he might. 00:15:23.700 --> 00:15:30.460 And he's really good at very respectfully, actually honoring the people who ask the question. 00:15:30.460 --> 00:15:30.860 Yeah. 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:31.420 Yeah. 00:15:31.420 --> 00:15:33.840 No, I think I will comment in there. 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:38.200 I just listened to it like half an hour ago because we were going to record this. 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:40.680 I was like, OK, I have to listen to at least the first two. 00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:41.880 And I'm enjoying it. 00:15:41.880 --> 00:15:42.220 Yeah. 00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:54.300 So coming back to that first episode, the reason why I enjoyed it so much, because it's like I almost want to take half that episode and publish it on ours, just as an example of how people can start podcasts. 00:15:54.300 --> 00:15:54.700 Yeah. 00:15:54.700 --> 00:15:57.320 Because what he did, he bought this thing. 00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:57.960 I checked it out. 00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:59.780 It's called the Roadcaster. 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:01.220 Yeah. 00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:01.980 Pro, I think. 00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:02.320 Yeah. 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.640 It's like, it looks like a mixing board. 00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:10.260 So it's like a thing with those sliders, like a physical thing you put on your desk with sliders and buttons. 00:16:10.260 --> 00:16:12.960 It's a device, not a piece of software. 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.960 It costs $800 on Amazon. 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.700 So you connect your microphone to it and it has buttons. 00:16:18.700 --> 00:16:25.380 You can press buttons and it plays music and some like audio effects that you heard in one of the previous clips. 00:16:25.780 --> 00:16:28.420 Wait, wait, which one was your most hilarious one? 00:16:28.420 --> 00:16:30.320 The most hilarious one? 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:30.500 Yeah. 00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:32.620 Why do you think? 00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:36.500 Mine was the one where he said, okay, audience, what do you think? 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:38.060 And all the audience was like, woo! 00:16:38.860 --> 00:16:39.820 How was that intro? 00:16:39.820 --> 00:16:41.320 Oh, thanks. 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:42.500 Thank you, everybody. 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:43.680 I appreciate that. 00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:45.360 Yeah, that was very good. 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:46.120 He was like, thank you. 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:46.480 Thank you. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:47.280 I really appreciate it. 00:16:48.280 --> 00:16:56.600 So he's been so silly in this, but at the same time, it comes across like he's not trying to be silly. 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.180 I mean, it's just like his demeanor, right? 00:16:59.180 --> 00:17:01.780 And it just comes across so authentic. 00:17:01.780 --> 00:17:06.160 So it's like he says he's not trying and he is not trying. 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:07.780 He is not trying what? 00:17:07.780 --> 00:17:09.560 To make it polished. 00:17:09.560 --> 00:17:10.140 Yeah. 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:10.740 Yeah. 00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:11.280 Make it polished. 00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:11.800 Make it funny. 00:17:11.800 --> 00:17:12.540 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:17:12.760 --> 00:17:15.600 It's just like he is funny by nature. 00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:20.420 He's also very kind of good natured and very, very nice person, right? 00:17:20.420 --> 00:17:28.460 I mean, this is why our episode, if you listen to it, the episode number four, which was the one with Jake and Jonathan. 00:17:28.460 --> 00:17:31.180 Well, basically half full of love. 00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:32.180 Jake and Jonathan. 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:33.780 Jake and Jonathan. 00:17:33.780 --> 00:17:35.020 Oh, she's as bad as it always was. 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:46.860 So, yeah, the interesting thing that he says at the end is like, thank you for listening. 00:17:46.860 --> 00:17:48.720 If you got to this place. 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.020 And I'm like, of course you got to this place. 00:17:52.020 --> 00:17:53.980 Or at least I got to that place. 00:17:53.980 --> 00:17:55.780 Like the very end of the episode. 00:17:55.780 --> 00:17:56.080 Yeah. 00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:57.460 Because I just enjoyed it so much. 00:17:57.460 --> 00:18:00.220 And I think a lot of other people also enjoyed it. 00:18:00.220 --> 00:18:03.780 And Jonathan himself, he is, I think, pretty self-aware. 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:14.020 And he is saying in one of the episodes that he thinks this podcast can get big and it will be part of the $10 million play that he is pursuing. 00:18:14.020 --> 00:18:19.120 And by episode three, he had a thousand listeners already. 00:18:19.120 --> 00:18:21.740 I don't know if he's measuring listeners to downloads. 00:18:21.740 --> 00:18:23.440 So, I don't know what metric he's looking at. 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.760 Because the plays, the downloads, it's a really inflated metric. 00:18:26.760 --> 00:18:27.700 It's like a vanity metric. 00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:29.840 It shouldn't be looked at, in my opinion, at all. 00:18:29.840 --> 00:18:32.300 We can talk about that in another episode. 00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:35.860 So, in episode four, he talks about the performance of episode three. 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:37.980 So, there were 1,500 listeners. 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:39.420 That's a lot. 00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:43.680 And he wants to get to 10,000 by end of March. 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.280 And that's what he says in his podcast. 00:18:47.280 --> 00:18:52.460 Please share this podcast because I will stop doing it if not enough people listen to it. 00:18:52.460 --> 00:18:52.680 Please. 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:54.920 I really like what you said. 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:59.540 This is a really good example for somebody who wants to start podcasting. 00:18:59.540 --> 00:19:02.780 Don't worry about all the technicalities. 00:19:02.780 --> 00:19:06.280 And don't even get yourself an $800 device, right? 00:19:06.280 --> 00:19:07.920 If you're just starting out podcasting. 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:09.040 And the $400 microphone. 00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:09.660 Yes. 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:11.860 Which he also got in the third episode. 00:19:11.860 --> 00:19:12.580 Yes. 00:19:12.580 --> 00:19:14.580 Which is a microphone that you want to get. 00:19:14.580 --> 00:19:16.840 You were telling me, Ilya. 00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:18.540 Like, now I just feel so jealous. 00:19:18.540 --> 00:19:27.300 Because if you listen to Joe Rogan or Tim Ferriss or whoever else uses SM7B, they just sound nice from the get-go. 00:19:27.300 --> 00:19:30.700 You don't know what these people sound otherwise. 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:35.680 And then you listen to Jonathan on this crappy microphone for the first two episodes. 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.220 I think it was like a Rode microphone or something. 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.780 And then third episode, he just sounds so much better. 00:19:41.780 --> 00:19:46.780 My first thought was, like, did he start processing audio? 00:19:46.780 --> 00:19:49.520 Because you just can't sound so good. 00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:50.340 Yeah. 00:19:50.340 --> 00:19:52.480 And then he says that he bought an SM7B. 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.340 And, yeah, it makes perfect sense. 00:19:55.340 --> 00:19:57.580 And now I'm like, I now have this thing. 00:19:57.580 --> 00:19:59.440 Like, I want to sound like him. 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.760 But to your point, you know, I shouldn't fixate on the quality. 00:20:02.760 --> 00:20:04.040 We have to get the goods. 00:20:04.040 --> 00:20:07.180 And if the goods are good, it doesn't matter what the sound quality is. 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:08.400 Exactly. 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:15.780 I, in fact, started feeling like we are doing too much post-processing already. 00:20:15.780 --> 00:20:16.560 Yeah. 00:20:16.560 --> 00:20:24.080 I mean, his works because his audience is aware of that, his style. 00:20:24.080 --> 00:20:29.240 And he's also very openly saying that if you don't like this, don't listen, right? 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.680 It's pretty okay. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.200 He's also a better speaker than we are. 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:35.120 Yes. 00:20:35.740 --> 00:20:38.240 We want more and more people to listen to us. 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.120 So our, I think, appetite for that is much less. 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:48.880 I really like his, essentially, he decided that I want to do a podcast and he started doing it. 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:49.720 And he did it. 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.800 Like, the first episode is literally his trial run. 00:20:52.800 --> 00:20:53.780 Like, literally. 00:20:53.780 --> 00:20:56.820 Like, like the trial run with the equipment that he doesn't know how to use. 00:20:56.820 --> 00:20:59.240 And he just, like, pokes around in real time. 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:06.520 Because he doesn't want to spend more time doing post-processing or pre-processing or learning these things. 00:21:06.520 --> 00:21:08.340 He's just doing it right at that time. 00:21:08.340 --> 00:21:09.620 And I like that. 00:21:09.620 --> 00:21:09.840 Yeah. 00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:11.280 It was very authentic. 00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:11.920 Yeah. 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:17.740 I think 99.9% of people in the world would be embarrassed to do what he did in the first episode. 00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:21.360 And actually, if they did this, it would not have worked. 00:21:21.360 --> 00:21:22.860 It would have backfired on them. 00:21:22.860 --> 00:21:23.540 Yeah. 00:21:23.540 --> 00:21:28.740 But maybe because of his personality, because of the brand that he's built, it actually works very nicely. 00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:29.720 I agree. 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:38.900 But I think for somebody who's just starting, it would be very easy for them to essentially just cut all of that out. 00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:44.100 Which is something that Jonathan doesn't want to take the time in doing that, right? 00:21:44.100 --> 00:21:46.760 And it actually adds to his podcast. 00:21:46.760 --> 00:21:47.820 So it makes sense. 00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:57.780 But if you're somebody just starting out and you just recorded a lot of things and you are trying out the equipment or you have technical problems while doing it, just cut it all out. 00:21:57.780 --> 00:21:59.520 It doesn't take much time. 00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:08.580 But don't basically fixate on getting it right, getting it perfect from the get-go. 00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:09.720 Yeah. 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:12.600 I disagree about it. 00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:17.680 I think my thing is get it out, right? 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.640 Like, if your content is good, then the rest doesn't really matter. 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:22.260 Yeah. 00:22:22.260 --> 00:22:26.720 I think the reason why it works for Jonathan really is, I mean, he's done podcasting. 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.580 He's done content production before. 00:22:28.580 --> 00:22:32.840 He knows what works kind of story-wise, the way he kind of builds up his stuff. 00:22:32.840 --> 00:22:36.100 And so he has the goods, paraphrasing. 00:22:36.100 --> 00:22:39.680 Well, actually, quoting Brian, our second guest. 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:43.780 Brian McCullough, who's the first guest, second episode. 00:22:43.780 --> 00:22:44.760 Second episode, yes. 00:22:44.760 --> 00:22:45.700 Yes. 00:22:45.700 --> 00:22:46.580 But anyway. 00:22:46.580 --> 00:22:51.020 Because the guest of the first episode was you, who is not a guest. 00:22:51.020 --> 00:22:52.040 Right. 00:22:52.040 --> 00:22:53.100 Meta guest. 00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:54.600 Yes. 00:22:55.600 --> 00:23:04.680 So yeah, I think that I really like in his podcast and how he shares openly his numbers of the business. 00:23:05.620 --> 00:23:17.400 In the third episode, he was talking about the product, the community of facilitators that they launched. 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:18.940 They were about to launch. 00:23:19.580 --> 00:23:25.740 And then in today's episode, episode number four, he's talking about how it made them 80,000 euros. 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:36.200 One thing that I've always liked working with and at places that have been very transparent about everything. 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:44.520 And you and I know early on, I think Amazon, like when you started and when I was there early on, it was very open. 00:23:44.520 --> 00:23:49.240 And even now it's pretty open, given like how big of a company it is. 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:53.100 Everything was in metrics in a data warehouse, if you remember. 00:23:53.100 --> 00:23:53.480 Yeah. 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:58.420 You want to look at anything, anybody in the company could query for anything and find out. 00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:03.500 Unless it was like personal details and something that absolutely needs to be secured. 00:24:03.500 --> 00:24:04.240 So yeah. 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:04.420 Yeah. 00:24:04.420 --> 00:24:04.860 Yeah. 00:24:04.860 --> 00:24:06.360 I really like that. 00:24:06.360 --> 00:24:12.080 And some of the other companies I worked at were also like that, where everything was transparent and open. 00:24:12.780 --> 00:24:13.360 Yeah. 00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:17.200 I am naturally gravitated to things like that. 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:22.080 And I did like that style of his talking about his business inside out. 00:24:22.080 --> 00:24:23.280 I really enjoy that. 00:24:23.280 --> 00:24:23.700 Yeah. 00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:26.640 There was actually another podcast called The Founder's Journey. 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.880 The Founder's Journey by Josh Pickford. 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.640 He did it maybe three or four or five years ago. 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:40.320 He was talking about his process of starting a startup that eventually I think he sold. 00:24:41.600 --> 00:24:47.900 Where he was recording, I think maybe weekly, maybe even more frequently, episodes about how the business went. 00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:51.800 And like what they learned last week, all that stuff. 00:24:51.800 --> 00:24:52.720 But it was very transparent. 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.120 I think he also shared numbers. 00:24:54.120 --> 00:24:56.180 Actually, I reached out to Josh on Twitter. 00:24:56.180 --> 00:24:57.480 He never responded. 00:24:57.480 --> 00:24:58.760 It's a shame. 00:24:58.760 --> 00:25:00.800 We would love to have him on our podcast. 00:25:00.800 --> 00:25:06.040 So now we have to stop this, Arnav, because it's 29 minutes in. 00:25:06.040 --> 00:25:11.000 And the transition is back into the reflection on the Jack and Jonathan episode. 00:25:11.600 --> 00:25:13.820 That we recorded two months ago. 00:25:13.820 --> 00:25:16.260 So one quick thing. 00:25:16.260 --> 00:25:21.820 If you're interested, go listen to Jonathan's new podcast, The Unscheduled CEO. 00:25:21.820 --> 00:25:23.540 I think it's pretty fun. 00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:30.860 If you don't know him or haven't heard to his podcast before, give it at least like an hour. 00:25:30.860 --> 00:25:35.000 And like he says, do it while you're doing dishes or whatever, right? 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:40.880 But don't give up after the first 25, 30 minutes if you don't know his style, right? 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:45.700 Because he's literally like trying to figure out how to use this device to record the podcast. 00:25:46.120 --> 00:25:48.620 Yeah, I would say even skip the first episode altogether. 00:25:48.620 --> 00:25:52.580 Just go straight to the second episode, because the second episode is really good. 00:25:52.580 --> 00:25:53.980 Right. 00:25:53.980 --> 00:25:58.760 It's like, I think it will be his most popular episode. 00:25:58.760 --> 00:26:03.600 And it will probably be the most structured episode ever that he's ever done. 00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:05.660 Or will ever do. 00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:10.240 And if you like Apple TV's Severance show, have you watched it, Ilya? 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:12.600 My wife did, she, so I know the story. 00:26:12.600 --> 00:26:14.800 Okay, I watched it. 00:26:14.800 --> 00:26:16.200 I think I told you to watch it too. 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:18.540 Find some time to watch it at some point. 00:26:18.540 --> 00:26:19.420 I loved it. 00:26:19.420 --> 00:26:23.060 I do think it's a bit dystopian and extreme. 00:26:23.060 --> 00:26:29.540 But yeah, if you liked it, I think that episode's topic would be near and dear to you too. 00:26:29.540 --> 00:26:30.820 Right, yeah. 00:26:30.820 --> 00:26:42.200 Okay, let's transition back to the originally recorded Jake and Jonathan's Reflection podcast back from November. 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:43.140 Yes. 00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:49.640 And actually, from now on, maybe if we have something to talk about, we can insert another half hour to all of our future episodes. 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:51.040 Just like that. 00:26:51.040 --> 00:26:54.060 But try to keep it to, I don't know, five minutes. 00:26:55.660 --> 00:27:01.380 I mean, today we tried to keep it to, before we started recording, we said we'll keep it to five to ten minutes. 00:27:01.380 --> 00:27:07.220 You said this, I didn't even try, because I knew it's not going to work. 00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:09.700 On to the Metasode. 00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:10.560 Yes. 00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:12.300 See you next week. 00:27:12.300 --> 00:27:16.960 Or no, see you in five minutes, and then again, see you next week. 00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:19.880 Hi, everyone. 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:26.120 Welcome to Metasode episode two, which is Metacast episode five. 00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:31.940 And to have you confused even more, this is my co-host, Arnab Deca. 00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:35.760 Hello, and this is my co-host, Ilya. 00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:39.620 So you don't dare pronounce my last name, do you? 00:27:39.620 --> 00:27:41.620 Best I love. 00:27:41.620 --> 00:27:42.180 Right. 00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:44.540 That's not actually hard. 00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:45.280 Yeah. 00:27:46.780 --> 00:27:52.640 We should probably talk a little bit about this episode and Metasode and all that and explain what's going on. 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:53.260 Yeah, let's do it. 00:27:53.260 --> 00:27:57.580 Because I think it's finally sinking into our heads now, after a few episodes. 00:27:57.580 --> 00:27:58.380 Yes. 00:27:58.380 --> 00:27:59.100 Yeah. 00:27:59.100 --> 00:28:01.180 Do you want to give your version first? 00:28:01.180 --> 00:28:02.120 Sure. 00:28:02.120 --> 00:28:02.580 Yeah. 00:28:02.580 --> 00:28:09.540 So what's happening is, we originally started recording this podcast, which is Metacast, 00:28:09.540 --> 00:28:20.260 because it's a podcast about podcasts, with the idea that we'll have people who run podcasts or have run podcasts and bring them on the show as guests. 00:28:20.260 --> 00:28:21.780 And we'll do it every two weeks. 00:28:21.780 --> 00:28:27.360 I think in our third episode, one of the episodes anyway. 00:28:27.820 --> 00:28:29.320 I think it was the fourth episode. 00:28:29.320 --> 00:28:32.160 Fourth episode with Jake and Jonathan. 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:35.280 They said, it's probably a better idea to do it weekly. 00:28:35.280 --> 00:28:37.680 And we decided, okay, actually, that makes sense. 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.000 And we kind of, we probably have chemistry. 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.600 You folks who are listening to it will decide better. 00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:45.380 But we felt we have some chemistry. 00:28:45.380 --> 00:28:54.120 And we thought, okay, so maybe we should do one episode in between that is a reflection on our episode with the guests. 00:28:54.120 --> 00:28:57.300 And we'll call that a meta-sode. 00:28:57.300 --> 00:29:04.420 So these meta-sode episodes are going to be a podcast about a podcast about a podcast. 00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:06.420 The podcast, podcast, podcast. 00:29:06.420 --> 00:29:07.700 Yes. 00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:09.240 That's the right one. 00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:11.580 I'm sure no one is confused anymore. 00:29:11.580 --> 00:29:14.080 But Ilya, do you want to give your take? 00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:18.200 Yeah, I'm pretty sure that everything is super clear for everybody right now. 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:23.600 So one thing that we should warn our listeners about is that those meta-sodes, 00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:28.220 even though we do have specific topics we want to cover, 00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:35.400 we want to talk about the things that went well, the things that we learned from the previous recording. 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:40.420 But also, we will go on tangents. 00:29:41.280 --> 00:29:47.640 And hopefully those will be fun because, you know, one thing actually I learned from the Jake and Jonathan episode. 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:54.020 Remember, I think it was Jake who said that at some point we just decided that we don't care what other people think. 00:29:54.020 --> 00:29:55.760 We just do what's fun for us. 00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:57.780 Well, I guess we are not that extreme. 00:29:58.560 --> 00:30:00.900 But I would like to borrow some of that. 00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:07.200 So if you go on some tangents because they're interesting to us, there will certainly be people who will like that as well. 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.740 But there will be people who are off-put by that. 00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:15.480 And yeah, if you're one of those people, just listen to our interview episodes. 00:30:16.760 --> 00:30:21.300 Yeah, and we'll clearly call it out in the title that this is a meta-sode. 00:30:21.300 --> 00:30:22.280 And yeah. 00:30:22.280 --> 00:30:28.260 But I think it's also going to be interesting for people who are like us, who are starting the podcast journey. 00:30:28.260 --> 00:30:37.020 Because we'll be discussing how we schedule these interviews, what went right, what went wrong, our whole process about it. 00:30:37.020 --> 00:30:43.020 So it's kind of like a reflection for ourselves as well as probably good learning for people who are starting their own podcasts. 00:30:43.020 --> 00:30:43.920 Yeah. 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:49.660 And also in those meta-sodes, we should talk about how the previous meta-sode recording went. 00:30:49.660 --> 00:30:51.500 So it's the meta-sode meta-sodes. 00:30:51.500 --> 00:30:53.140 One sec. 00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:58.580 And now it's my dog, of course, who doesn't want to stay outside without me. 00:30:58.580 --> 00:31:00.860 And now he wants to go out. 00:31:00.860 --> 00:31:03.540 Well, I just hope he doesn't fart. 00:31:03.540 --> 00:31:04.540 Yeah. 00:31:07.020 --> 00:31:09.980 His farts are not that loud, though. 00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:11.900 They're smelly, but they're not loud. 00:31:11.900 --> 00:31:12.640 So it's okay. 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:21.520 So there was one thing that I wanted to really tell the audience about and tell you about that, that I forgot to mention in our first episode. 00:31:21.520 --> 00:31:29.320 When we did the recording with one person for my other podcast, she probably was a little bit hungry. 00:31:29.320 --> 00:31:36.520 And all of the belly sounds that she experienced, of her belly asking for food, 00:31:37.020 --> 00:31:39.520 they're all on the recording. 00:31:39.520 --> 00:31:45.320 And so, yeah, those little sounds, they can be really fun, but they can also be distracting. 00:31:45.320 --> 00:31:49.520 So as you know, I do intermittent fasting, right? 00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:52.060 So I don't eat until the afternoon. 00:31:52.060 --> 00:32:01.000 And most of our recordings are always in the morning, which means you will probably hear a lot of my belly sounds every episode. 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:07.240 The difference with that person was that she was recording on her phone in a sock. 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.220 If you don't know what I'm talking about, go listen to the first episode. 00:32:11.220 --> 00:32:16.700 And it was positioned at kind of very close to her belly. 00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:17.560 Yeah. 00:32:17.560 --> 00:32:23.080 So I think, I think with you using a cardioid mic, you have your Blue Yeti in cardioid mode. 00:32:23.080 --> 00:32:25.960 It should not pick up the belly sounds. 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:28.300 So that's not advertisement for Blue Yeti. 00:32:28.300 --> 00:32:32.580 Like, send it to cardioid mode, forget about the belly sounds in your podcast. 00:32:32.580 --> 00:32:34.780 Or farts, for that matter. 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:37.620 Yeah, that's a great point. 00:32:37.620 --> 00:32:51.360 Plus, also, I think what you're talking about, the lesson here is, if you regularly have food in the morning, and you're recording a session in the morning, then make sure to have food before that. 00:32:51.360 --> 00:32:52.260 Right? 00:32:52.260 --> 00:32:56.740 Because my body is also, at this point, I think, used to not having food. 00:32:56.740 --> 00:33:02.160 So my stomach is probably not, like, rumbling all around in the mornings as much. 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:03.700 Yes. 00:33:04.020 --> 00:33:08.800 The key other lesson here is burps. 00:33:08.800 --> 00:33:13.900 You know, I have had a few recordings where people would burp during the recording. 00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:19.520 It's not like, you know, it's more like they just, excuse me, kind of thing. 00:33:19.520 --> 00:33:21.900 But then they do this in the middle of a sentence. 00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:22.680 Right. 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:33.340 And so even if you cut those out, you still hear that hesitation in the middle of the word or, like, the sentence that they were saying. 00:33:33.760 --> 00:33:41.920 So I would say, if you want to burp, finish a sentence, burp, wait a little bit, and then continue. 00:33:42.580 --> 00:33:47.860 Sounds during the speech, they're really hard to cut. 00:33:47.860 --> 00:33:49.360 And I think, and they're fine. 00:33:49.360 --> 00:33:51.240 I think most listeners will not even hear them. 00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:54.800 But I guess to my trained ear, I just can't help noticing them. 00:33:54.800 --> 00:33:59.000 So just in general, like, trying to minimize those external sounds, I think is a good idea. 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.500 So they said... 00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:01.460 Oh, sorry. 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:07.040 And whenever something does happen, like, sometimes you would have to burp or, like, I don't know, fart. 00:34:07.040 --> 00:34:08.600 I don't know, right? 00:34:09.580 --> 00:34:12.380 But if you have to do that, you have to do that. 00:34:12.380 --> 00:34:19.120 But the point is, take a long pause before, do the thing, and then take a long pause after. 00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:27.620 This way, you can edit it out pretty cleanly without making it sound very unnatural or producing, like, a kind of sound. 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:35.620 Right, yeah, ideally, you just re-record the entire sentence, so that you don't actually have to stitch things together, even. 00:34:35.620 --> 00:34:43.960 You just, you know, make it sound as if you said it right the first time, and didn't fart in between. 00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:52.180 So, this said, can we start this episode with a piece of feedback? 00:34:52.180 --> 00:34:53.560 Can you take feedback on that? 00:34:53.560 --> 00:34:54.360 You sure? 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.240 Yes, let's see, I might fart in your face. 00:34:58.240 --> 00:34:58.960 But let's see. 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:03.120 Well, I'm so, I'm so glad you're at the opposite side of the continent. 00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:15.260 And for those of you who listened for us for the first time, I'm in Florida, and Arnab is in Vancouver, British Columbia, which is probably, well, if you were in Alaska, you would be a lot farther away. 00:35:15.260 --> 00:35:16.220 Yeah, even farther, yeah. 00:35:16.220 --> 00:35:17.120 Yeah, but yeah. 00:35:17.120 --> 00:35:22.140 This is getting close to the furthest places you could be in, in North America, yeah. 00:35:22.140 --> 00:35:22.980 Fartest places? 00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:24.020 Yeah. 00:35:24.020 --> 00:35:28.120 Okay, so here's, here's the, 00:35:28.120 --> 00:35:31.060 feedback I want to give you about the last Metasode recording. 00:35:31.060 --> 00:35:37.840 As I was editing, I heard a few noises from your phone of messages. 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:39.260 It sounded like an iMessage. 00:35:39.260 --> 00:35:40.820 So it was a sound like ding. 00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:45.440 And I think there was a tiny bit of vibration coming as well. 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:49.940 So here's a tip for everybody, but for you in particular, Arnab. 00:35:52.600 --> 00:35:59.580 put your phone in the not disturb mode or, you know, airplane mode or just get it out of the room entirely. 00:35:59.580 --> 00:36:00.860 Right. 00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:03.420 No, I think I did get messages that day. 00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:06.860 I think the ding wasn't from me, but there was vibration. 00:36:06.860 --> 00:36:10.120 Even in silent mode, I think there's a bit of vibration. 00:36:10.120 --> 00:36:11.580 Right? 00:36:11.580 --> 00:36:14.700 However, it was, it was on your recording. 00:36:14.700 --> 00:36:16.520 Oh, interesting. 00:36:16.720 --> 00:36:19.660 I thought the ding was from Jonathan's side, but... 00:36:19.660 --> 00:36:22.500 No, no, it was when we recorded the one-on-one Metasode. 00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:24.380 Oh, okay, okay, okay. 00:36:24.380 --> 00:36:25.320 Got it, got it. 00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:28.300 I think I did switch everything to silent. 00:36:28.300 --> 00:36:34.880 I like your setup too, where you use the iPhone's focus modes, right? 00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:37.160 And like, basically everything disappears. 00:36:37.160 --> 00:36:39.920 Yeah, should I talk about that really briefly? 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:45.240 Because I suppose a lot of people struggle with picking up their phone all the time and getting 00:36:45.240 --> 00:36:47.840 distracted by notifications and all that. 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:55.520 One thing I did about a month ago, I started using the iOS's focus modes. 00:36:55.520 --> 00:36:59.600 Actually, people on Android, I don't know if they can replicate that as well with Android 00:36:59.600 --> 00:37:01.100 functionality, I cannot tell. 00:37:01.100 --> 00:37:04.980 If I had to guess, Android probably had it like a few years back. 00:37:05.300 --> 00:37:10.680 Okay, yeah, and then Apple came, copied what Android does, but made it like 10x better. 00:37:10.680 --> 00:37:12.400 Yeah, exactly. 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:18.280 Yeah, so I now have a few focus modes, one of which is a personal mode, where I just have 00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:24.140 a few icons on my home screen, like stuff for reading and listening mostly, like Audible 00:37:24.140 --> 00:37:33.080 and podcasting app and Kindle, and a couple of messaging apps, like iMessage, Signal, and 00:37:33.080 --> 00:37:37.160 Whatsapp, that's pretty much it, and a couple of music apps, like the drum machine and stuff like 00:37:37.160 --> 00:37:43.460 that. And I turned off all of the notifications, not even the red circles on the, on the apps, 00:37:43.460 --> 00:37:48.120 except for iMessage and the phone, because that's the tool I primarily use for interaction with my 00:37:48.120 --> 00:37:52.180 wife when she, you know, when she's not next to me. So I don't want to miss those. 00:37:52.180 --> 00:37:59.240 The notification, red circles, that's not a focus mode setting, right? That's just, you just turn it 00:37:59.240 --> 00:38:00.540 off for everything all the time. 00:38:00.540 --> 00:38:02.180 You can do it in per focus. 00:38:02.180 --> 00:38:04.280 Oh, that's awesome. 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:11.800 Yeah. So I use that, that mode, which means like, if I want to open Instagram or even Gmail, I actually 00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:17.420 have to search for that app. Like I have to like type text. So there's a lot of friction there, 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:22.880 but also because there are no notifications and no circles, and I don't even see the icons. I 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.740 actually don't look at those. Oh, I should never have to burp. 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.820 No. No, it's like as a, was it easy to burp on Commando after you suppress it when it came 00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:37.400 naturally? 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:45.320 Like I suppressed it and now I have this kind of burp stuck in, in my body. It didn't come out. Um, 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:50.280 but now I'm so conscious about like the need to burp. I don't know what to do about it. Um, 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:56.120 it'll come when it comes. Yeah. Just let it flow naturally. So yeah, I have that focus mode that 00:38:56.120 --> 00:39:01.800 basically I don't get any, almost any notifications during the day. Um, and for the night I use a sleep 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:09.720 mode, which basically shuts my phone off. It becomes almost unusable. It turns on at around 9:00 PM. I 00:39:09.720 --> 00:39:17.640 think I just try to stay off screens after eight. I go to bed at 10:00, 10:30 nowadays, so I can wake up at 00:39:17.640 --> 00:39:23.480 six to, you know, do some stuff in the morning, have this time for myself while kids are still asleep. Yeah. 00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:28.200 And I also have a fitness mode when I just go for a walk, for example, like I don't do my match sport, 00:39:28.200 --> 00:39:34.200 but like when I go for a walk, I walk daily. I just turn the outdoor walk on my Apple watch and 00:39:34.200 --> 00:39:40.600 then the phone automatically goes into the fitness mode and fitness mode. I have all notifications 00:39:40.600 --> 00:39:46.520 disabled except for the phone. So only if somebody calls me, then it will go through. Otherwise I'm 00:39:46.520 --> 00:39:51.480 not distracted. So I can actually focus on things around me on life. Yeah. There are, I think a few 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:56.600 more modes you could set up. I think these two or these three are enough for me, but yeah. Um, 00:39:56.600 --> 00:40:01.640 you can like customize and add any modes, any focus modes you want. I think. 00:40:01.640 --> 00:40:07.480 Yes. I think that personal one, I believe I just created the custom one. I just crafted it from 00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:12.440 scratch. Right. I think the function that at least people I talked to don't know about 00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:21.080 is that you can create a new set of icons for the home screen and you can have a custom set of icons 00:40:21.080 --> 00:40:26.520 for, you know, all of those modes for each of those modes. That's the one I didn't know about because 00:40:26.520 --> 00:40:33.000 notifications wise, I basically have everything turned off all the time anyway, like Facebook and 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:38.120 Instagram and recording the podcast, right? That was, I think like maybe a WhatsApp or something like 00:40:38.120 --> 00:40:43.720 that. Uh, yeah. But other than that, pretty much everything is turned off. No, in fact, WhatsApp is 00:40:43.720 --> 00:40:48.760 turned off too. Maybe it was signal. Anyway, doesn't matter. I have a few things that can send me 00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:57.160 notifications like Slack and signal and few things. But what I didn't know that I saw you doing was when 00:40:57.160 --> 00:41:02.520 you were in a specific mode, there's only like five things on your screen. 00:41:02.520 --> 00:41:09.640 Now it's more, uh, it used to be five, but then I started to doing, I started to do more music. So I added 00:41:09.640 --> 00:41:16.920 like a drum, drum machine thing on it. It's, I guess, as a rule on the first screen, outside of the 00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:26.040 messaging apps, everything else is, uh, stuff that is very proactive, like audible or Kindle or the drum 00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:32.520 machine, they wouldn't try to pull me into the app for me to do some stuff. It's like when I have time, 00:41:32.520 --> 00:41:37.320 you know, I read or listen, when I, uh, want to play the guitar, I've turned on the drum machine. 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:43.960 So those are, you know, non-intrusive apps, if it makes sense. Yeah. And actually, actually, 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:48.360 I do have a second screen. I forgot to mention that. So I also have a second screen in my personal 00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:55.160 focus that has all of the smart home icons just for easier access to things like the Nest thermostat, 00:41:55.160 --> 00:42:00.600 you know, like controlling the temperature. And also it has the Amazon icon also just in case I need 00:42:00.600 --> 00:42:08.840 to obsessively compulsively buy something. Like I was like... The Amazon icon is on your like that mode? 00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:16.440 Okay. Here's the thing. I have a friend, like he's, he's a very kind of wealthy individual and, um, he 00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:24.040 tells me a lot of good stuff. One of the things that he told me is like, why do you spend time on like doing 00:42:25.160 --> 00:42:32.120 kind of garbage non-value ad work? Right. And that includes shopping. I'll give you an example. 00:42:32.120 --> 00:42:38.520 We bought the Christmas tree a few days ago and we started decorating the tree. And what we realized 00:42:38.520 --> 00:42:44.600 is that our Christmas lights no longer work. I guess some fuse burned out and, uh, I couldn't fix it. 00:42:44.600 --> 00:42:52.760 So my wife is like, can you go to Home Depot and bring a new ones? Home Depot is about 15, 20 minutes drive, 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:57.720 one way. So it's going to be like an hour, a full hour that I have to spend to go and get like 10 bucks 00:42:57.720 --> 00:43:03.480 worth of stuff. And I told her that, you know what? It can probably wait two days. 00:43:04.200 --> 00:43:10.200 So we went to Amazon, we found the Christmas lights that we needed. We ordered them. They arrived 00:43:10.200 --> 00:43:16.360 yesterday. We put them on the Christmas tree. It saved me one hour. So I started to use Amazon more 00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:21.240 for this kind of small stuff that I would normally just go to like a grocery store for. Right. 00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:26.200 Instead, I just order it. I know it's not good because it's like all these boxes and stuff, 00:43:26.200 --> 00:43:30.200 but man, it's so convenient. Right. 00:43:30.200 --> 00:43:35.240 Yeah. And, uh, yeah, and actually a specific, a specific example that my friend was coaching me on, 00:43:35.240 --> 00:43:39.560 like I had to drop my car off for like an oil change. And he's like, why don't you get the 00:43:39.560 --> 00:43:45.320 contract where they come and pick up your car and, uh, give you a loaner car and then they give you 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:50.200 your car back like at your house. And I'm like, this, this is a good idea. I mean, I haven't done it. 00:43:50.200 --> 00:43:53.560 I actually don't know if it even exists. He, he's in Europe and Switzerland. It's where all the rich 00:43:53.560 --> 00:43:59.880 people live. Uh, but yeah, but in general, that was a good lesson because I'm like, why did I spend like 00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:03.160 two hours of my time, actually more than two hours of my time that I could have spent, 00:44:03.160 --> 00:44:08.920 you know, talking to you or recording the podcast or doing the editing or, you know, working or 00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:14.520 actually just spending time with my children for like completely like wasted time kind of activity. 00:44:14.520 --> 00:44:17.080 I forgot what we started from, uh, but yeah, 00:44:17.080 --> 00:44:21.160 you just did it again. 00:44:21.160 --> 00:44:28.840 I still have a remnant of a cold from last week left. So coughing up a little bit, but I think 00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:32.840 I took your feedback, not to cough in between, take a pause before and after. 00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:40.200 Okay. 20 minutes in. And is it was me like talking for 15 minutes out of the first 20. 00:44:40.200 --> 00:44:45.240 Let's talk about Jake and Jonathan. Uh, for those of you who haven't listened to the, to the previous 00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:52.120 episode, uh, Jake Knapp and Jonathan Courtney, uh, great product design guys who did the Jake and 00:44:52.120 --> 00:44:58.200 Jonathan podcast, also known as product breakfast club. And, uh, yeah, we sent them an email. 00:44:58.200 --> 00:45:04.120 Actually, let me take a step back. We were looking for the first people to invite on our show. 00:45:04.120 --> 00:45:10.360 And Brian McCullough was, uh, probably one of the first people I emailed and he responded right away. 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:14.680 We got him on. That was great. So yeah, it was really awesome that he agreed to talk to us. 00:45:14.680 --> 00:45:19.480 Then, then I was, um, I really wanted to get Jake and Jonathan, or at least one of them, 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:23.720 because I really love their show. Uh, they just talk about stuff. I love them. 00:45:23.720 --> 00:45:30.520 And then I was looking them up. I found Jake Knapp's website where there was a contact form 00:45:30.520 --> 00:45:37.000 and you could request a speaking engagement from him. And one of the fields was like, how much are we 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:43.640 going to pay him for that? I'm like, Oh my God. But, and then I almost actually didn't send the form. 00:45:43.640 --> 00:45:50.760 I'm like, uh, like how do I work around that? So what I did is in the notes, you know, whatever, 00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:56.760 the message field, I wrote that, you know, we are doing this podcast and, um, I really love their show 00:45:56.760 --> 00:46:03.720 and how the rumble about Gandalf and all that stuff. And I told him that we cannot offer any fee 00:46:03.720 --> 00:46:10.120 for him talking. So that's just going to be fun. If he wants to fun, you know, why not respond to us? 00:46:10.120 --> 00:46:15.960 Yeah. And he responded in a few days and he pulled in, uh, Jonathan Courtney, his, uh, cohost 00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:21.960 and it took maybe three or four weeks for us to schedule. And finally we, uh, yeah, we had the 00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:26.120 recording that was, that was great. So what were your takeaways from that? 00:46:27.240 --> 00:46:31.640 Uh, before we get to the takeaways, I have like three or four, three or four things before the 00:46:31.640 --> 00:46:38.360 takeaways. No, no, no. Just one thing before the takeaways. So it was very smooth to schedule, 00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:45.080 but I think one, maybe we'll touch upon this again later on, but it was hilarious in the episode. We 00:46:45.080 --> 00:46:50.040 talked about it too, that we, you and I talked about like, when can we meet them? Right. Because 00:46:50.040 --> 00:46:56.840 one of them is in Berlin, I believe. And Jake is in New York or California. 00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:58.120 I think he is in Seattle. 00:46:58.120 --> 00:47:04.360 Oh, he's in Seattle. Okay. Anyway. So, so we have Vancouver, Seattle, Florida, and Berlin. 00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:08.440 So we were figuring out what would be ideal time slots. Let's figuring out before, 00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:12.760 before we send it out to them. And you and I came up with like, I don't know, three, 00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:19.000 four weeks of 50 different slots, I think. Right. So we did the doodle thing where you specify the 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:23.240 time slots you're available and other people can choose from those. Yeah. As you said, we had many, 00:47:23.240 --> 00:47:33.400 many slots there. Jake didn't even reply, I believe. And Jonathan just picked one slot out of all those. 00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:37.560 And then I just responded. I'm like, okay, so it looks like the three of us can do that slot. 00:47:37.560 --> 00:47:43.400 Jake, can you make it too? Yeah. And he said, yes. And then, yeah, they showed up on time and 00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:48.520 there were no issues. I think we stayed a little bit over. So that was really great. 00:47:48.520 --> 00:47:55.400 So by the way, I know you will be looking in your notes in VS code on your computer and you have a 00:47:55.400 --> 00:48:00.600 very loud keyboard. So for those of you who don't know Arne, he has this keyboard where like, no matter 00:48:00.600 --> 00:48:05.800 how hard he presses the buttons, you will get a headache if you like work next to him. And he also like 00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:09.880 pounds them like crazy. That's because he, you know, when he works, like when you work in the office, 00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:14.200 he would listen to music with his headphones. He actually doesn't realize how loud he was 00:48:14.200 --> 00:48:21.480 on the recording. Don't do it. Yeah. No, I'm very conscious about not using the keyboard in any 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:29.880 meetings at all. And for the, for reference, this is a mechanical keyboard, a DAS keyboard. And I think it's the 00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:35.800 cherry green, which gives you the most tactile feedback, but also the loudest ones. 00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:38.520 Why do you like loud keyboards? 00:48:38.520 --> 00:48:46.920 So it's not the loudness that I like. I don't really care. It's the tactile feedback. And there 00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:51.480 are different. So in like mechanical keyboards, there are four or five different flavors of keys that you 00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:59.400 can get like blue and brown and green, that sort of stuff. The one I tried four or five of them, 00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:04.840 different ones. And the ones that I liked the most, they have the most feedback when you're like typing, 00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:09.160 but also happened to make the most noise because of that. 00:49:09.160 --> 00:49:11.720 And what do you mean by feedback? Like, how do you experience it? 00:49:11.720 --> 00:49:19.000 Uh, so when you like press the buttons, the amount of, uh, feedback that you get back from the keyboard. 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:26.280 So for example, if you have tried, uh, you know, MacBooks, they come with those very shallow keys. 00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:33.080 I love them. And in fact, the new ones are a bit better, but let's say the 2019, 2020 versions 00:49:33.080 --> 00:49:39.400 where it was almost flat. The butterfly keyboard, that was terrible. Yes. So I, I don't even like 00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:44.760 the new Mac keyboards. They're like too shallow for me. I get almost no feedback from them. 00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:49.000 So by feedback, you mean like how much like tension or like friction there is when you press the button? 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:54.920 How much, uh, how deep it goes, how much, uh, how much tension you feel out of it. 00:49:54.920 --> 00:50:00.600 Oh, interesting. So, so for example, for listeners who are listening, if you're typing on an iPad, 00:50:00.600 --> 00:50:07.400 right, with the built-in on-screen keyboard, that would be like zero feedback. I mean, it tries to give 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:11.960 you a haptic feedback a little bit, but that's about it. You don't actually get any physical 00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:17.080 feedback. The haptic feedback is your brain kind of being made to believe that there is a physical 00:50:17.080 --> 00:50:24.360 touch there. Right. Whereas the MacBook keyboard or maybe a typical laptop keyboard, because the form 00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:30.360 factor has to be very shallow. It's made to be like that. Whereas mechanical keyboards are, they have, 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:34.920 they're meant to like give you that feel for, yes, you're hammering away at something. 00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:39.480 I know what I'm going to get you for your next birthday. A typewriter. 00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:48.440 Yeah. That, that would be fun. I think I, I saw a typewriter somewhere recently. You don't see many 00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:55.960 of them anymore. When I was a kid, I was maybe like seven through 12, maybe that age before, 00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:03.480 uh, you know, I had a computer. My grandparents had a typing machine, uh, the typewriter, and they 00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:10.120 really liked typing on it. That sound, that, that feel, I really love that, that noise that it makes 00:51:10.120 --> 00:51:16.280 like, like ding when you do that, or the carrot thing. Yeah. The carriage return. Uh, so that's, 00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:22.520 that's really fun. But if you make a typo, well, good luck. Yeah. But I really loved it. 00:51:22.520 --> 00:51:29.400 No, I, my dad, my dad had a typewriter too. I also was really fascinated by the mechanical like 00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:36.680 interaction of how you press the key and the lever behind the type, the typewriter actually goes with 00:51:36.680 --> 00:51:42.680 the ink and like impresses the ink into the paper behind it. Right. I, I love just observing it. 00:51:42.680 --> 00:51:49.320 Yeah. And you had to pound really hard for, for this to be like, uh, you know, for the letter to be 00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:54.680 really visible and, you know, I mean, I see, you know, right. But some of our listeners might, 00:51:54.680 --> 00:52:01.880 might not is that the standard QWERTY keyboard layout, QWERTY being like Q, W, E, R, T, Y on, 00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:09.080 in the first, uh, row of, of keys on the keyboard, that layout was designed for typewriters to slow them 00:52:09.080 --> 00:52:14.920 down so that people don't type too fast as to not to jam the levers, levers, levers. 00:52:14.920 --> 00:52:21.560 And also I think to avoid, uh, typos as much as possible, right. Because you're reducing the 00:52:21.560 --> 00:52:26.680 speed you're making. Yeah. And that's why some of the common letters are pretty far, far apart in 00:52:26.680 --> 00:52:31.560 the QWERTY layout. Did you experiment with one of the alternative layouts? I did. I did. 00:52:31.560 --> 00:52:39.160 So for people, some people may know already, but there are other layouts available for keyboards, 00:52:39.160 --> 00:52:46.600 right? Like Devorah, Colmac and all that. And believe it or not, those are way more efficient for 00:52:46.600 --> 00:52:52.760 you to type on in today's world where you can like erase things, right? You're in a word processor or 00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:57.400 anywhere you're typing. You can pretty much erase it and rewrite it. Whereas in the typewriter world, 00:52:57.400 --> 00:53:03.240 that wasn't possible. That's why the QWERTY layout came in, like you said, right? So I did try with 00:53:03.240 --> 00:53:09.800 Dvorak and I think I, you programmed a little bit, right? So you may remember, did you ever try Vim or 00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:16.120 Emacs? I programmed quite a lot, but not recently. Right, right. So did you try like Vim or Emacs? 00:53:16.120 --> 00:53:21.320 What, what was your editor when you were programming? Uh, when I was programming, it was like, I guess back in 00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:26.920 the olden days, I was using Visual Studio, the, the non-code version, like the, the old Visual Studio. 00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:32.680 Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So you probably didn't feel it as much, but you know about Vim and 00:53:32.680 --> 00:53:37.640 Emacs, right? And it's almost like religious how people don't want, if you use Vim, you don't want 00:53:37.640 --> 00:53:43.960 to go to Emacs. So I was an Emacs person. If you were to ask me to switch to Vim, it would probably take 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:50.600 like three months of me not doing any productive work, uh, to just to learn the key bindings of Vim. 00:53:50.600 --> 00:53:56.760 And like, because it's a completely different way of editing text. Right. So why I said that is 00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:03.160 switching from one keyboard layout to another one, it's, you could probably double or triple the amount 00:54:03.160 --> 00:54:08.200 of time it would take you like completely unproductive to get used to the new layout. 00:54:08.200 --> 00:54:14.840 Okay. I think at this point we lost that English teacher podcaster who was listening to us for the 00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:21.320 information about podcasts. Yeah. Uh, but just to close on your original question, 00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:27.320 I did try switching to Dvorak. Uh, one of my coworkers was a Dvorak person and he kind of 00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:32.360 said, Hey, this is cool. Let's try it out. And I tried to switch. I gave it about two weeks of 00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:38.360 completely no productive work. And then I said, yeah, no, this is too much work. 00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:42.520 Dvorak sounds like a Serbian name, like Dvorak Milosevic or something. 00:54:42.520 --> 00:54:48.120 It might be, I don't know what the origin of it is. It's probably the person who came up with that 00:54:48.120 --> 00:54:53.640 layout first. Yeah. Okay, cool. So where were we 10 minutes ago? Uh, what were your takeaways? 00:54:53.640 --> 00:55:03.160 Okay. So the first one, I just love the amount of laughs in that episode, right? So you did the, 00:55:03.160 --> 00:55:08.920 you shared the raw recordings with me and stitch them together into like one file. And I listened 00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:15.480 to them while walking with my dog a couple of times, the amount of laughs and it's all natural. 00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:21.000 I just loved it. That episode made me super happy. And I think at the end of the episode, 00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:25.800 I already said it, that this kind of like made my day, but when I really listened to it again, 00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:31.400 it made my day again. And yeah, that was, I think my biggest takeaway from it. 00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:36.520 Cool. Maybe let's, let's share, let's take turns in sharing takeaways. 00:55:36.520 --> 00:55:42.280 Yeah. So by the way, I want to plus one, uh, what you just said, that episode was just so light, 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:47.000 so enjoyable. I haven't listened to it yet. Uh, but that the feel of it, by the way, 00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:52.120 those laughs are hard to edit because they are the same volume, the same volume as people talking at 00:55:52.120 --> 00:55:58.200 the same time that creates a bit of a challenge, but it's, it's worth it. That episode was so good 00:55:58.200 --> 00:56:04.120 in terms of loves. Let me ask you a quick question about editing. Um, you, we were four people on 00:56:04.120 --> 00:56:10.120 that, uh, that meeting, you had four independent audio tracks. Why did you just, why did you just 00:56:10.120 --> 00:56:18.440 crack your, whatever, like your fingers while talking? Yeah. It'll go away. Okay. Let me start 00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:24.120 again. No, no, I'll keep giving you feedback in real time. Just go on. Let's keep all this in the 00:56:24.120 --> 00:56:28.600 episode, right? Like this, we are learning to. Exactly. Yeah. What do you call it? Like when you 00:56:28.600 --> 00:56:33.800 like do these things to your knuckles? Clicking. Yeah. Clicking. Yeah. You just click. I mean, 00:56:33.800 --> 00:56:39.800 it was very audible, so people will hear it for sure. Okay. Okay. Cool. Okay. So going back to it. 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:47.240 So you have four independent audio tracks, right? That you downloaded from Squadcast. When you're 00:56:47.240 --> 00:56:53.880 editing, uh, are you like stitching them up first and then editing, or are you doing the edits separately? 00:56:53.880 --> 00:57:02.200 Cause that'll take a lot more time. So those are four individual tracks in the, uh, you know, 00:57:02.200 --> 00:57:08.440 in the, uh, audio software. I use Reaper. They actually are easier to edit when they're independent 00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:13.720 because there is a lot of noise, like your finger clicking and stuff like that. Like while you don't 00:57:13.720 --> 00:57:21.720 talk, uh, that noise is still recorded. So basically what I do a lot of is I cut out those parts where 00:57:21.720 --> 00:57:26.040 like a person is not speaking because if you, if you, if you merge the tracks together, then you lose 00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:33.160 that ability to remove those, uh, yeah, those, those noises. And also, uh, things like, like I want 00:57:33.160 --> 00:57:38.680 to keep the laughs in, uh, but then if somebody is, yeah, I remember I was looking at this where, um, 00:57:38.680 --> 00:57:45.960 Jonathan was saying something and Jake was laughing over Jonathan and because of their setup, 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:50.440 Jonathan was wearing headphones, AirPods. His sound is kind of a little bit kind of boomy and more 00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:57.080 like on the low end and more kind of, there's more bass in there. Whereas Jake's sound is brighter 00:57:57.080 --> 00:58:05.880 because there are more high frequencies there. Uh, and what happens is that Jake's laughs, laugh overpowers 00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:11.560 the, uh, Jonathan's speech, right? But what you actually want to hear is, uh, Jonathan's speech 00:58:11.560 --> 00:58:18.120 and Jake's laugh should just be in the background. So I have to actually lower the volume of that particular 00:58:18.120 --> 00:58:24.040 laugh. So it's still there, uh, but it's more like ambient laugh, uh, as opposed to like a, you know, 00:58:24.040 --> 00:58:28.440 front and center because actually there was, there was one part I was listening to my studio headphones 00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:33.880 and I couldn't make sense what Jonathan was saying because of the laugh in the background. So yeah, 00:58:33.880 --> 00:58:39.240 it's very long answer to your question. But the point is that actually the more separation you have, 00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:46.600 the more control you have over, you know, what you, what you, what you added. And also I think what 00:58:46.600 --> 00:58:53.240 happened a little bit is actually, I think we recorded that one in Riverside. We used Riverside 00:58:53.240 --> 00:58:57.640 because I think Squadcast, we have whatever the accounts that only supports up to three listeners, 00:58:57.640 --> 00:59:03.160 or sorry, up to three, uh, speakers and Riverside supports more. So we just for that particular one, 00:59:03.160 --> 00:59:10.680 we used Riverside and some of the audio is out of sync, which means like I have to move things a little 00:59:10.680 --> 00:59:17.560 bit around so that, you know, you speak at the right time. Uh, for example, like I give you an example, 00:59:17.560 --> 00:59:21.480 there was a point where you were saying something and you haven't finished your phrase yet. 00:59:22.120 --> 00:59:29.960 And then Johnton says, Oh yeah. And he starts to talk about it. And it's just so obvious that like, 00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:34.840 he couldn't have answered your question without listening to it first. So like, like, it's not 00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:40.920 just, you know, the light latency in the call. It's actually, uh, like misaligned audio. And, uh, 00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:44.600 again, if you merge things together, you, you cannot control this because there are two people talking 00:59:44.600 --> 00:59:50.760 at the same time. And this doesn't happen in Squadcast. I have not seen that happen in Squadcast, no. 00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:56.360 Right. So this is becoming a bit of an ad from Squadcast. We should just ask money from them at 00:59:56.360 --> 01:00:02.680 some point. We actually emailed the Squadcast guys, and, uh, we are discussing doing an episode with 01:00:02.680 --> 01:00:09.800 them. So maybe an episode will come out and well, Squadcast is such a great tool. I'm happy to like 01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:17.000 advertise them as long as they retweet our episode. Yeah. No, we also talked about Zoom and Squadcast. 01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:21.720 Maybe one episode we should touch upon that too, but not today. Uh, let's get to it later. 01:00:21.720 --> 01:00:27.160 Yeah. I was looking at the Zoom pricing and, uh, I think pricing is actually very reasonable. It's 01:00:27.160 --> 01:00:33.320 like 15 bucks a month, which is actually cheaper than Squadcast. However, what I don't like about 01:00:33.320 --> 01:00:40.360 Zoom is the files are recorded locally, and then you have to ask your guests to upload those files. 01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:46.360 And, uh, with you and me, it probably wouldn't be a problem. You know, we can do that, but then like 01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:51.400 with busy people, you want them to just finish the recording, leave the meeting and forget about it. 01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:56.520 Right? So Squadcast is much more managed in that regard. 01:00:56.520 --> 01:01:02.440 So like someday when we get Tim Ferriss, we don't have to email him again asking, hey, by the way, 01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:06.200 don't close your browser tab. Don't forget to upload it afterwards and all that. Yeah. 01:01:06.200 --> 01:01:13.720 Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if the Squadcast, they have to keep their browser open until it uploads, 01:01:13.720 --> 01:01:16.920 but, but that's easy, right? That's, that's very easy. It's much easier than 01:01:16.920 --> 01:01:19.640 locating the file and like uploading it to Google Drive or something. 01:01:19.640 --> 01:01:26.280 Right. It also kind of keeps uploading as you're speaking. So it's not like waiting to do it at the 01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:31.000 very end, but it does take a few seconds after. Yeah. Actually, I think if you have a good internet 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:35.800 connection, then it just takes a few seconds after you finish the call for all the recordings to be 01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:43.080 available. And actually maybe one pro tip here is you can stop the recording and engage your guests a 01:01:43.080 --> 01:01:49.320 little bit more after the recording is stopped because then they are still in the browser window 01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:55.160 talking to you and the uploading happens in the background. So that's another way to control for 01:01:55.160 --> 01:01:59.560 that. So I actually, I think you interrupted me and I haven't finished saying what I was saying. 01:01:59.560 --> 01:02:02.120 Let's get back to your first reflection. 01:02:02.120 --> 01:02:05.880 Yes. Yes. Because, because, because I also want to talk about my takeaways. 01:02:11.720 --> 01:02:15.560 Oh man, I'm looking at my notes and I think we actually discussed all of the things that we, 01:02:15.560 --> 01:02:22.360 that I took away from that. But I think what I really liked about that episode is that we rumbled 01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:29.640 a lot. We went to the different topics, just like they do. And that felt so good. It almost like 01:02:29.640 --> 01:02:41.400 I had this conception that a podcast is a structured edited piece of content where you like maximize for 01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:47.560 like effective communication. It has to be structured, like some tangents are okay, but not too much. 01:02:47.560 --> 01:02:55.560 And what these guys did is like just talk about anything for an hour. And that's pretty much how our 01:02:55.560 --> 01:03:01.080 episode turned out. We had some specific questions, but overall we went on a lot of tangents. It almost 01:03:01.080 --> 01:03:09.800 like legitimized that approach for me. Like it actually feels very good. And I like listening to them. And there are a lot 01:03:09.800 --> 01:03:13.560 of other people who like listening to them. So maybe if we actually do something similar, 01:03:13.560 --> 01:03:18.600 it's not going to be off putting, at least for some people. 01:03:18.600 --> 01:03:24.600 And the worst case is people don't listen to it, which is another takeaway I think from that episode 01:03:24.600 --> 01:03:26.520 is do it for yourself first. 01:03:26.520 --> 01:03:33.560 So I'm just, if I was Jonathan, you know what I would say, screw them. They don't need such listeners anyway. 01:03:33.560 --> 01:03:40.600 So I'm just, I'm just quoting one of the things that he said in one of the 200 episodes. 01:03:40.600 --> 01:03:44.680 I'm just kidding. You know, we love, we love all of you. 01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:51.640 We cherish every single, I don't know if anybody's listening to it right now, but if you are, we really 01:03:51.640 --> 01:03:52.040 love it. 01:03:52.040 --> 01:03:53.560 But right now, maybe you're just NSA. 01:03:53.560 --> 01:03:56.120 Right. Well, 01:03:56.120 --> 01:03:56.920 I mean, there's a recording. 01:03:56.920 --> 01:03:57.400 Let's not get there. 01:03:57.400 --> 01:03:59.720 Off the record. 01:03:59.720 --> 01:04:01.320 Anyway. 01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:03.720 NSA, NSA spies, hello. 01:04:03.720 --> 01:04:11.240 If you're listening, then please leave us a comment and a five star rating. 01:04:15.560 --> 01:04:26.440 Well, I felt like our episode was almost like a, you know how water you put it in any container 01:04:26.440 --> 01:04:27.480 and it takes that shape. 01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:36.360 I felt like the episode with Brian was very much like how a Brian episode is. 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:39.080 The first episode. 01:04:39.080 --> 01:04:39.960 Yes. 01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:41.240 Yeah. 01:04:41.240 --> 01:04:42.120 Right. 01:04:42.120 --> 01:04:48.520 It was like, it was not very rambling, at least from our side. 01:04:48.520 --> 01:04:50.840 And it was pretty structured. 01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:55.880 Like we were asking questions and he would answer and he was taking us through a story 01:04:55.880 --> 01:04:58.920 of the whole, whole, like basically his whole life so far. 01:04:58.920 --> 01:04:59.160 Yeah. 01:04:59.160 --> 01:05:01.320 He would go on a tangent, but he would always come back. 01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:02.440 Yes. 01:05:02.440 --> 01:05:06.520 Whereas with Jake and John, it would be like, they go on a tangent. 01:05:06.520 --> 01:05:09.880 And I remember John saying like, I forgot what the question was. 01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:13.320 And then it didn't matter at that point. 01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:18.120 They would go on a tangent and then we would go on another tangent from that tangent. 01:05:18.120 --> 01:05:21.000 And like five tangents after we were like, where were we? 01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:25.640 But it was also, like you said, it was a very enjoyable episode. 01:05:25.640 --> 01:05:29.720 If I may say so myself and the listeners can listen to it and decide, but. 01:05:29.720 --> 01:05:31.720 I think you and I could also give ourselves ratings. 01:05:31.720 --> 01:05:32.680 Apple didn't check for that. 01:05:32.680 --> 01:05:35.640 I don't think Apple checks for that. 01:05:35.640 --> 01:05:36.600 So let's just do it. 01:05:36.600 --> 01:05:37.880 Right. 01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:38.520 Five stars. 01:05:38.520 --> 01:05:40.760 I would give ourselves a five stars. 01:05:40.760 --> 01:05:44.280 And also if you're listening to this, like while you have nothing to do anyway, while you're 01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:46.040 listening, give us a five star rating. 01:05:46.040 --> 01:05:47.240 Right. 01:05:47.240 --> 01:05:54.200 But yeah, I thought that that episode also went almost exactly like how Jake and Jonathan episodes 01:05:54.200 --> 01:05:54.440 go. 01:05:54.440 --> 01:05:55.000 Right. 01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:58.200 Very fun, but a lot of rambling, a lot of tensions. 01:05:59.080 --> 01:06:07.480 Maybe that's the beauty of our podcast because we can adjust to how the other people do their 01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:14.040 podcasts and actually have our podcast, our episode have a bit of the feel of what they do. 01:06:14.040 --> 01:06:20.120 Like if you listen to our interview with Jake and Jonathan, if you like it, it's like 100% you're 01:06:20.120 --> 01:06:21.640 going to like their episodes. 01:06:21.640 --> 01:06:23.640 If you listen to Brian's stuff. 01:06:23.640 --> 01:06:23.960 Yeah. 01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:24.840 It's like more serious. 01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:25.640 It's more serious. 01:06:25.640 --> 01:06:26.600 It's like maybe water. 01:06:26.600 --> 01:06:28.040 That's a little bit ice. 01:06:28.040 --> 01:06:32.600 So there is a little bit more structure. 01:06:32.600 --> 01:06:38.920 And if you like content delivered in that way, then Brian's episodes will probably resonate a lot. 01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:39.560 Right. 01:06:39.560 --> 01:06:39.800 Right. 01:06:39.800 --> 01:06:46.920 And I think in between these different flavors of podcasts, you'll figure out what you like to do. 01:06:46.920 --> 01:06:52.440 Because there are some podcasts and podcasters who go really well with more like narrative or 01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:53.720 structured kind of episodes. 01:06:53.720 --> 01:07:01.640 And there are more like Q and A, like where the questions and answers are not, not like rigidly 01:07:01.640 --> 01:07:02.840 decided beforehand. 01:07:03.960 --> 01:07:10.680 And like you said, I think this episode gave me the confidence that we could do something like that 01:07:10.680 --> 01:07:14.600 too, where we have enough fun things to talk about. 01:07:14.600 --> 01:07:15.800 Let's just talk about it. 01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:17.480 Yeah. 01:07:17.480 --> 01:07:20.040 And actually also not so fun things too. 01:07:20.040 --> 01:07:26.360 There was one moment in the Jake and Jonathan episode where I forgot how we ended up there, 01:07:26.360 --> 01:07:34.680 but I brought up the article that Jake wrote in 2018 or 2017 when he was leaving Google. 01:07:34.680 --> 01:07:39.000 And I think his father had passed away like a year prior to that. 01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:42.520 And he, I'm not disclosing any information. 01:07:42.520 --> 01:07:45.560 I'm just saying what's in the article. 01:07:45.560 --> 01:07:46.680 It's in public domain. 01:07:46.680 --> 01:07:53.640 And when I was reading that, I cried, like I literally cried when I was reading the article. 01:07:53.640 --> 01:07:56.280 And I shared with a few people, I think I shared with you as well. 01:07:56.280 --> 01:08:00.040 I mean, obviously it will not resonate with, uh, with everybody, but like for me, 01:08:00.040 --> 01:08:01.320 it resonated on many levels. 01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:06.360 And, um, I told Jake about that during the recording. 01:08:06.360 --> 01:08:12.120 So, and then we went on a tangent that was, uh, not so happy, but it was also very 01:08:12.120 --> 01:08:19.560 compassionate, very honest, very, you know, heartwarming, uh, eye watering. 01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:22.600 I think, actually, I think I almost cried while we recorded this. 01:08:22.600 --> 01:08:24.440 Like I really had my eyes watering. 01:08:24.440 --> 01:08:25.000 Yeah. 01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:29.000 So, and then actually I remember that and I'm like, how did I get this back to the fun stuff? 01:08:29.000 --> 01:08:31.320 And then somehow we adjusted back. 01:08:31.320 --> 01:08:37.240 It's, it's interesting that you mentioned that cause that was the second moment that I 01:08:37.240 --> 01:08:38.360 wanted to talk about too. 01:08:38.360 --> 01:08:41.240 In fact, it touched me so much that I wrote it down. 01:08:41.240 --> 01:08:47.240 This is about 28 minutes in, in our episode number four, if you want to go and re-listen. 01:08:47.240 --> 01:08:49.320 Which is probably more like 23 minutes after the edit. 01:08:49.320 --> 01:08:50.520 Yeah. 01:08:50.520 --> 01:08:50.920 Yeah. 01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:51.320 Yeah. 01:08:51.320 --> 01:08:51.320 Yeah. 01:08:51.320 --> 01:08:57.720 Um, so start about 20 minutes in, and I think you will start to get into that flow of conversation, 01:08:57.720 --> 01:09:03.880 but essentially it's the four of us talking about jobs and work and all that. 01:09:03.880 --> 01:09:10.600 And their reflections of it, because they both, uh, I mean, Jake was working at Google ventures 01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:16.840 and then he left, like you talked about, uh, Jonathan has been running like his own 01:09:16.840 --> 01:09:20.920 independent, uh, design studio for 12 years now. 01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:28.920 Um, so we were talking about all of that and something that Jake said really, uh, resonated 01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:29.320 with me. 01:09:29.320 --> 01:09:29.560 Right. 01:09:29.560 --> 01:09:34.920 And, and I'll, I'll say it again, what he said is like, he was talking about how work 01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:42.600 and typical, like big corporations are essentially all rooted around pushing you. 01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:44.200 Everything you do. 01:09:44.200 --> 01:09:50.760 There is pushing you towards some sort of movement inside that organization, right? 01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:56.840 Like either promotions or product releases or whatever it is, but generally it's more towards 01:09:56.840 --> 01:10:02.120 like career movement, uh, rather than like take more responsibility, make more impact. 01:10:02.120 --> 01:10:02.520 Yes. 01:10:02.520 --> 01:10:04.280 Get to the next level. 01:10:04.280 --> 01:10:05.080 Yes. 01:10:05.080 --> 01:10:06.280 Get to the next level. 01:10:06.280 --> 01:10:08.680 That's always like your imperative. 01:10:08.680 --> 01:10:15.560 And to get to the next level, you do other things, which are actually what the customers see, 01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:18.920 like you're releasing new things or changing things. 01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:20.760 And, but you're doing that. 01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:24.280 That your primary objective is to get to the next level. 01:10:24.280 --> 01:10:26.520 And there was nothing in there for him. 01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:30.280 And that was like, this is like me a hundred percent. 01:10:30.280 --> 01:10:35.960 Cause as you may know, listeners, Ilya, you know, obviously I left, uh, I was feeling like 01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:37.400 that for a couple of years, right. 01:10:37.400 --> 01:10:41.800 As I grew more and more senior, uh, at Amazon. 01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:46.760 And I don't know if I'm doing the right thing by saying all this out podcast or not. 01:10:48.040 --> 01:10:55.960 But, um, this is kind of, it came very naturally to me that I feel like I'm doing more and more 01:10:55.960 --> 01:11:02.760 just for the promotions and movement within the company, both for myself and others, 01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:09.800 rather than actually doing stuff for people who are using things off the company. 01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:10.440 For customers. 01:11:10.440 --> 01:11:12.120 For customers. 01:11:12.120 --> 01:11:12.440 Yes. 01:11:12.440 --> 01:11:15.240 And that didn't resonate with me at all. 01:11:15.240 --> 01:11:18.680 And when Jake said it, you should go and listen to how Jake said it. 01:11:18.680 --> 01:11:20.520 He said it much better than I did. 01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:22.120 That was like a hundred percent. 01:11:22.120 --> 01:11:24.680 This is exactly what I have been feeling. 01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:25.240 Yeah. 01:11:25.240 --> 01:11:26.600 So that was my second moment. 01:11:26.600 --> 01:11:29.160 If you have a takeaway, let's go for it. 01:11:29.160 --> 01:11:34.280 But I also want to know if you had something that you did not like in that episode. 01:11:34.280 --> 01:11:35.720 Oh, that's hard. 01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:41.800 Because if you start to say what we don't like, well, to be honest, I didn't like Jonathan much. 01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:47.320 No, I'm just kidding. 01:11:47.320 --> 01:11:50.520 Uh, he knows what this is all about. 01:11:50.520 --> 01:11:50.760 Yeah. 01:11:50.760 --> 01:11:56.040 No, that, that particular episode, I just enjoyed so much. 01:11:56.040 --> 01:12:00.440 Well, I guess one thing I would say I didn't like, I didn't like the John was wearing airpods. 01:12:00.440 --> 01:12:00.600 Yeah. 01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:02.280 This just sounds so terrible. 01:12:02.280 --> 01:12:08.920 And, uh, one thing I noticed in the, you know, in the, in the audio, when I was listening in my 01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:14.760 headphones, like studio headphones, and by the way, uh, so I think since we recorded last episode, 01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:15.800 I got new headphones. 01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:21.080 I got the Audio-Technica MT50X. 01:12:21.080 --> 01:12:22.200 I think that's what they're called. 01:12:22.200 --> 01:12:25.880 If you just search for Audio-Technica M50, you will see those. 01:12:25.880 --> 01:12:28.520 They have like 20,000 reviews on Amazon. 01:12:28.520 --> 01:12:32.280 Those are great headphones, 160 bucks, I believe with Bluetooth. 01:12:32.280 --> 01:12:38.360 In that headphones, you can hear every single squeak in the audio. 01:12:38.360 --> 01:12:44.920 So yeah, I was listening to his recording and when he laughs, there is this clipping sound, 01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:48.760 you know, when the volume is kind of too high and the volume starts to kind of clip. 01:12:48.760 --> 01:12:52.120 It's like very high frequency, kind of unpleasant, kind of scratchy kind of sound. 01:12:52.120 --> 01:12:55.080 You'll probably hear it in the recording. 01:12:55.080 --> 01:12:56.520 I mean, in the, in the episode. 01:12:56.520 --> 01:12:56.920 So yeah. 01:12:56.920 --> 01:12:58.120 And also because of... 01:12:58.120 --> 01:13:00.200 You think that's, that's like the airport, 01:13:00.200 --> 01:13:05.720 AirPods digitally modifying it because the volume is too different between different segments? 01:13:07.240 --> 01:13:12.120 Maybe, yeah, well, if you set, if you set a microphone gain too high, 01:13:12.120 --> 01:13:16.200 and then if you laugh, you will probably hear the same kind of clipping 01:13:16.200 --> 01:13:17.640 because your voice will be fine. 01:13:17.640 --> 01:13:19.960 But that laugh is actually much louder than the voice. 01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:21.960 So you will hear those clippings too. 01:13:21.960 --> 01:13:23.800 It's just, I guess, AirPods just don't manage that well 01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:26.120 because they're not meant for recording. 01:13:26.120 --> 01:13:29.480 So yeah, Jonathan created a bunch of problems for us post-production. 01:13:29.480 --> 01:13:35.480 I thought you would bring this up when I, when I talked about it. 01:13:35.480 --> 01:13:40.520 And this is what I wanted to talk about too, because in the very first episode, 01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:43.240 you talked about how you should never use AirPods. 01:13:43.240 --> 01:13:48.200 And then two episodes in our guest comes in wearing AirPods. 01:13:48.200 --> 01:13:49.160 Yeah. 01:13:49.160 --> 01:13:53.480 Well, here's, I guess, the lesson about assumptions. 01:13:53.480 --> 01:13:59.800 Because when we started this podcast, we assumed that because our guests are podcasters, 01:14:00.440 --> 01:14:06.360 we don't have to coach them on like what equipment to use, what, you know, how they should be recording. 01:14:06.360 --> 01:14:10.760 It's almost like you have a perfect guest, somebody who joins you from a studio. 01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:13.080 And then there we go. 01:14:13.080 --> 01:14:16.520 We have Jonathan and AirPods because these guys actually, 01:14:16.520 --> 01:14:20.120 they stopped doing their podcast about two years ago. 01:14:20.120 --> 01:14:22.120 And he just didn't have his equipment. 01:14:22.120 --> 01:14:23.560 So I think it's fair. 01:14:23.560 --> 01:14:25.400 It's fair that he did this. 01:14:25.400 --> 01:14:27.400 Yeah, just to be clear, like, I'm just, I'm just kidding. 01:14:27.400 --> 01:14:28.280 He will get it. 01:14:28.280 --> 01:14:30.920 Like, I'm not trying to, you know, denigrate him or anything. 01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:35.400 But yeah, I guess our assumption was that people will have proper equipment. 01:14:35.400 --> 01:14:40.360 And this assumption actually was not true for both of the episodes. 01:14:40.360 --> 01:14:44.200 Because Brian was in his office with the Blue Yeti mic. 01:14:44.200 --> 01:14:50.840 And he did kind of, I think the acoustics of that office is not perfect. 01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:55.480 But he does his own stuff in his home studio with that box on his head, 01:14:55.480 --> 01:14:58.600 which if you don't know what I'm talking about, listen to the Brian McCulley episode, 01:14:58.600 --> 01:15:01.240 where he talks about the Portabooth device. 01:15:01.240 --> 01:15:03.080 It's just something, I guess, the lesson I learned here is like, 01:15:03.080 --> 01:15:07.400 even if you talk to podcasters, we need to at least mention that they should, 01:15:08.040 --> 01:15:10.440 you know, get into their studio, get a good mic, etc. 01:15:10.440 --> 01:15:12.680 If they have all of that, yeah. 01:15:12.680 --> 01:15:14.280 If they're recording a podcast, they should. 01:15:14.280 --> 01:15:16.040 If they're currently podcasting, yeah. 01:15:16.040 --> 01:15:17.480 I think it was fair. 01:15:17.480 --> 01:15:25.240 It also, I think, really drove home another point that came up in our episode with Brian, 01:15:25.240 --> 01:15:33.320 which is no matter what the quality of the audio is, ultimately, it's the content. 01:15:33.320 --> 01:15:33.880 Yes. 01:15:33.880 --> 01:15:34.360 Right. 01:15:34.360 --> 01:15:40.440 And this is what I found in spite of the AirPods and kind of the weird, sometimes 01:15:40.440 --> 01:15:47.320 Jonathan would say things and maybe it was just my side of the audio or maybe it was actually in 01:15:47.320 --> 01:15:54.280 the source itself, but it would produce a weird twang in the sound and it'll kind of like stretch it 01:15:54.280 --> 01:15:54.840 out. 01:15:54.840 --> 01:15:58.600 I don't know if all that came out or not, but it was very weird to hear. 01:15:59.240 --> 01:16:05.320 But in spite of all that, when I listened to the episode, the raw episode that you shared with me, 01:16:05.320 --> 01:16:07.000 right, I loved it. 01:16:07.000 --> 01:16:09.400 And this is the meat of it. 01:16:09.400 --> 01:16:13.160 The content is what ultimately matters. 01:16:13.160 --> 01:16:14.520 We have the good. 01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:15.640 Yes. 01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:19.160 And if you don't know what we're talking about, listen to the Brian McCullough episodes. 01:16:19.160 --> 01:16:19.880 Yes. 01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:22.760 Actually, that's one thing I wanted to mention too. 01:16:22.760 --> 01:16:28.360 What I like about those metasodes and how we talk about the past stuff, that introduces path 01:16:28.360 --> 01:16:31.320 dependence in our story. 01:16:31.880 --> 01:16:37.400 So basically, if you listen to this and we just keep name dropping on all of the people who have 01:16:37.400 --> 01:16:41.720 been on the show, we talk about the things that we talked about previously, we recap them a little 01:16:41.720 --> 01:16:42.280 bit. 01:16:42.280 --> 01:16:48.040 But if you want to really dive into those, you would actually have to go back and listen from 01:16:48.040 --> 01:16:49.880 the very beginning. 01:16:49.880 --> 01:16:51.960 So you get the sense, you get the full story. 01:16:51.960 --> 01:17:00.040 You know, and I really liked that in the Ben Thompson's Stratechery blog and podcast. 01:17:00.040 --> 01:17:02.040 I'm not familiar with that. 01:17:02.040 --> 01:17:02.920 You're not familiar with it? 01:17:02.920 --> 01:17:03.880 Yeah. 01:17:03.880 --> 01:17:05.080 It's stratechery.com. 01:17:05.080 --> 01:17:09.240 It's like a strategy and technology, like Stratechery and I guess archery. 01:17:09.240 --> 01:17:11.640 I don't know where the last part comes from. 01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:13.800 It's a blog by Ben Thompson. 01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:15.240 He is like an analyst. 01:17:15.240 --> 01:17:21.880 Every couple of days, he writes a long blog post about stuff that happens in technology. 01:17:21.960 --> 01:17:28.200 Like when Epic Games sued Apple for charging whatever the 30% or whatever it was, right? 01:17:28.200 --> 01:17:31.880 He would cover this over the course of multiple weeks. 01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:37.400 And he would also talk about how COVID impacted the technology, all that. 01:17:37.400 --> 01:17:40.840 This stuff is really, really interesting to read and also listen to. 01:17:40.840 --> 01:17:46.680 If you have a paid subscription to his blog, you get the same content in the audio format. 01:17:46.680 --> 01:17:50.520 So he was actually one of the first people to introduce paid podcasting. 01:17:51.720 --> 01:17:55.560 Way before Apple Podcasts, Spotify had paid subscriptions. 01:17:55.560 --> 01:17:56.840 So this is really cool. 01:17:56.840 --> 01:17:58.040 Actually, I emailed him. 01:17:58.040 --> 01:18:00.680 Let's see if he accepts our invitation to talk to be on the show. 01:18:00.680 --> 01:18:02.840 Hey, Ben, if you're listening to this, please come over. 01:18:02.840 --> 01:18:05.320 We would like to talk to you about the podcasting. 01:18:05.320 --> 01:18:12.360 So yeah, but what's interesting about his blog and podcast is that 01:18:12.360 --> 01:18:16.920 there is always this reference to the previous stuff that he has done. 01:18:16.920 --> 01:18:24.040 So he would like, as I mentioned in, you know, two days ago, and then he would give a quote of this 01:18:24.040 --> 01:18:27.160 basically to keep the, you know, the context so that readers aren't completely lost. 01:18:27.160 --> 01:18:35.640 But still, if you never skip an episode, if you listen to all of those, you get a much better picture 01:18:35.640 --> 01:18:38.760 of what's going on because you're almost like having a conversation with him. 01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:39.880 That's just like ongoing. 01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:43.640 Whereas if you just listen piecemeal, then you feel like you're missing out. 01:18:43.640 --> 01:18:50.040 And I like that to vibe, you know, as a, as a creator, I mean, as a listener, you would be like, 01:18:50.040 --> 01:18:52.200 you're manipulating me into listening to all of your stuff. 01:18:52.200 --> 01:18:58.200 But as a, as a podcaster, I think it's great because hopefully that will drive more engagement with our 01:18:58.200 --> 01:19:03.080 other shows and people will fall in love with our chemistry and subscribe and give us a five-star rating. 01:19:03.080 --> 01:19:07.080 It's also very authentic and on brand, right? 01:19:07.080 --> 01:19:10.280 I mean, this is an episode talking about previous episodes. 01:19:10.280 --> 01:19:15.800 So of course we're going to talk about stuff that came out in previous episodes and this is all fresh 01:19:15.800 --> 01:19:16.440 in our mind. 01:19:16.440 --> 01:19:17.960 So yeah, makes sense. 01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:18.760 Yeah. 01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:24.440 Speaking about the last metasode that we did, the first one, which is episode number three, 01:19:24.440 --> 01:19:30.040 I recorded that episode using a Blue Yeti mic in my office. 01:19:30.040 --> 01:19:34.120 And in the episode, we talk about how the echo is kind of terrible in the room. 01:19:34.120 --> 01:19:40.440 So now I just want to follow up on that because I produced that episode and I had to use a D-reverb 01:19:41.240 --> 01:19:47.160 filter from, from iZotope, iZotope RX9 suite of software. 01:19:47.160 --> 01:19:50.840 Yeah, there is a lot of echo in there, but I think it got suppressed pretty well. 01:19:50.840 --> 01:19:53.640 So yeah, actually I think it's not too bad. 01:19:53.640 --> 01:19:58.120 So that's why today I'm also recording in my office. 01:19:58.120 --> 01:20:01.080 However, I'm using a different mic. 01:20:01.080 --> 01:20:03.000 So I bought a new mic during Black Friday. 01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:08.600 I bought a Shure MV7, the same one that got stolen from me in San Francisco, 01:20:08.600 --> 01:20:11.220 which if you don't know what I'm talking about, listen to the first episode. 01:20:11.240 --> 01:20:13.240 So I have the same kind of mic, which I really like. 01:20:13.240 --> 01:20:14.280 Fast dependence. 01:20:14.280 --> 01:20:15.640 Fast dependence, yeah. 01:20:15.640 --> 01:20:21.080 And I cover it with a pop filter on one hand. 01:20:21.080 --> 01:20:24.920 There is a foamy thing that absorbs audio on the other. 01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:30.840 And I also put my hoodie on top of it to suppress the reflections of the sound. 01:20:30.840 --> 01:20:33.960 So I was talking to somebody yesterday. 01:20:33.960 --> 01:20:37.400 He told me that you need to suppress the first reflection. 01:20:37.400 --> 01:20:44.200 So basically like when you speak the direction that you speak towards the first hard surface 01:20:44.200 --> 01:20:47.720 that the sound hits is where it's going to be reflected first. 01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:51.400 So basically what you want to do is you want to put something that suppresses that sound from 01:20:51.400 --> 01:20:53.240 traveling further in the room. 01:20:53.240 --> 01:21:00.040 So even in the spacious room like I have, by suppressing the reverberation of the immediate surface, 01:21:00.040 --> 01:21:06.680 I make it matter less that I have this whole kind of big room with empty walls. 01:21:06.680 --> 01:21:11.400 However, you know, I ordered myself a big carpet and also some sound panels. 01:21:11.400 --> 01:21:12.360 So I have a little project. 01:21:12.360 --> 01:21:17.640 I have a little project for the next couple of weeks to put those on the walls and see how it happens. 01:21:17.640 --> 01:21:20.440 But yeah, I don't want to be recording in my closet anymore. 01:21:20.440 --> 01:21:21.560 I want to graduate from it. 01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:24.520 But yeah, that's just a comment I wanted to make. 01:21:24.520 --> 01:21:29.720 Because we didn't know what the result of that echo will be. 01:21:29.720 --> 01:21:30.520 I think it's fine. 01:21:30.520 --> 01:21:31.320 It wasn't too bad. 01:21:31.320 --> 01:21:36.600 Actually, as I'm listening to that post-produced episode in my studio headphones, 01:21:36.600 --> 01:21:39.320 I don't fully like the sound of it. 01:21:39.320 --> 01:21:41.320 I think your sound is fine. 01:21:41.320 --> 01:21:45.480 My sound is, there's still a bit of kind of that echo artifact in there. 01:21:45.480 --> 01:21:51.640 However, when I listen to that post-produced episode while doing dishes and 01:21:51.640 --> 01:21:57.400 while walking and like driving, you can't hear much there. 01:21:57.400 --> 01:22:03.000 And I think this is the difference between say something like music and podcast. 01:22:03.000 --> 01:22:03.880 Right. 01:22:03.880 --> 01:22:07.160 Oh man, like when I got these headphones, 01:22:07.880 --> 01:22:09.720 I was listening to Alt-J. 01:22:09.720 --> 01:22:11.080 Do you know that band, Alt-J? 01:22:11.080 --> 01:22:12.200 No. 01:22:12.200 --> 01:22:13.160 They're a British band. 01:22:13.160 --> 01:22:14.200 They're very popular actually. 01:22:14.200 --> 01:22:15.640 It's Alt-J. 01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:18.360 It's like a shortcut on a keyboard for something. 01:22:18.360 --> 01:22:21.640 So they have this song called Taro, T-A-R-O, 01:22:21.640 --> 01:22:24.040 which is one of my most favorite songs of all time. 01:22:24.040 --> 01:22:26.760 It's very kind of nice and mellow. 01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:28.200 Really, really good. 01:22:28.200 --> 01:22:30.440 I'm going to write that down. 01:22:30.440 --> 01:22:35.720 I didn't realize how many artifacts there were in that song. 01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:43.720 Some small noises from the guitar and some other things that I would never have noticed. 01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:45.400 Actually, I never noticed them. 01:22:45.400 --> 01:22:47.240 I listened to that song maybe like 200 times. 01:22:47.240 --> 01:22:50.600 I never noticed those until I started listening in silence in my headphones, 01:22:50.600 --> 01:22:52.440 in studio headphones, which is important. 01:22:52.440 --> 01:22:56.840 And the other thing I noticed there was in one part, there was like a backing, 01:22:56.840 --> 01:23:00.360 what do you call it, the backing vocals, like background vocals. 01:23:00.360 --> 01:23:01.160 Right. 01:23:01.160 --> 01:23:02.840 And I never noticed they were there. 01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:05.000 And I'm like, oh my God, this is so, so good. 01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:08.200 I think that's the key, right? 01:23:08.200 --> 01:23:15.480 Podcasts, most people who are listening to podcasts are probably not putting on their studio headphones 01:23:15.480 --> 01:23:20.200 and like sitting down in silence and concentrating just on the podcast. 01:23:20.200 --> 01:23:24.200 This is sort of like auxiliary. 01:23:24.200 --> 01:23:26.600 You're listening to it while doing something else. 01:23:26.600 --> 01:23:32.040 Maybe you're driving, maybe you're walking, maybe you're doing the dishes, whatever it is. 01:23:32.040 --> 01:23:32.600 Right. 01:23:32.600 --> 01:23:36.280 And you're not going to notice some of those things. 01:23:36.280 --> 01:23:38.600 The background sounds as much. 01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:43.480 And even if you do, it doesn't matter because you're concentrating on the actual 01:23:44.280 --> 01:23:47.160 subject rather than on the quality of the sound. 01:23:47.160 --> 01:23:52.920 But when you're listening to music, the quality of the sound is paramount. 01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:55.320 It's probably the most important thing. 01:23:55.320 --> 01:23:57.480 Well, aside from the music, I mean, of course. 01:23:57.480 --> 01:24:00.840 So yeah, I think that's why it makes a big difference. 01:24:00.840 --> 01:24:03.320 So one thing I'll mention very quickly. 01:24:03.320 --> 01:24:05.880 I attended a Metallica show about a month ago. 01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:07.720 Meta-lica. 01:24:07.720 --> 01:24:08.840 Meta-lica. 01:24:08.840 --> 01:24:12.680 Yeah, here in Florida, they were doing like a 40 year anniversary 01:24:13.240 --> 01:24:16.120 concert in a very small venue, relatively small. 01:24:16.120 --> 01:24:19.640 It was maybe like 5,000 people or so, which is very small. 01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:24.520 I mean, very small compared to like they were playing like 50,000 stadiums. 01:24:24.520 --> 01:24:25.160 Right. 01:24:25.160 --> 01:24:30.120 And the energy that I was experiencing in the room, I mean, in the theater 01:24:30.120 --> 01:24:32.120 was so just wild. 01:24:32.120 --> 01:24:35.480 I just felt that energy kind of flowing through me, through all the people. 01:24:35.480 --> 01:24:36.840 I felt like connected with the crowd. 01:24:36.840 --> 01:24:38.840 I felt connected with the musicians. 01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:45.800 And while I was driving to the show, I was listening to those same songs in my car. 01:24:45.800 --> 01:24:52.040 And it's like, I don't know, 10 times less. 01:24:52.040 --> 01:24:59.160 So I went to a Foo Fighters concert the first time I went. 01:24:59.160 --> 01:25:02.120 Before that, I listened to Foo Fighters once in a while. 01:25:02.120 --> 01:25:02.600 Right. 01:25:02.600 --> 01:25:08.200 But I was not like, this is not like by any means my favorite band or anything like that. 01:25:08.200 --> 01:25:10.520 I went into the concert. 01:25:10.520 --> 01:25:14.840 And I think Foo Fighters is widely regarded as one of the best like live performers. 01:25:14.840 --> 01:25:16.760 Dave Grohl, basically. 01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:19.640 Yes, it's a Nirvana's drummer band. 01:25:19.640 --> 01:25:21.160 Yes, yes. 01:25:21.160 --> 01:25:25.240 And I came out and it's been like, I don't know, five, six years now. 01:25:25.240 --> 01:25:30.760 Foo Fighters has been my top, like basically band since that day. 01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:36.680 The energy in a really well done concert is like unparalleled, right? 01:25:36.680 --> 01:25:41.480 And this year, actually, I just want to quickly mention, I had tickets to go to their Vancouver 01:25:41.480 --> 01:25:48.520 show again, but their drummer passed away like just a month before the tour. 01:25:48.520 --> 01:25:54.520 I was really sad because this is the first time I was going to take my daughter to a rock concert 01:25:54.520 --> 01:26:00.120 and kind of show her how it works, even though there'll be a few like explicit words in there. 01:26:00.120 --> 01:26:04.120 I think she's she's like at that age where she can absorb it at this point. 01:26:04.120 --> 01:26:07.320 And I wanted her to experience that energy. 01:26:07.320 --> 01:26:08.760 Right. 01:26:08.760 --> 01:26:09.960 But we missed out. 01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:13.080 And of course, like this is not by any means the saddest part. 01:26:13.080 --> 01:26:15.000 The saddest part is such a great drummer. 01:26:15.000 --> 01:26:16.920 Like he was amazing. 01:26:16.920 --> 01:26:24.360 If you have some time, go check out on YouTube like Dave Grohl and their like duets. 01:26:24.360 --> 01:26:25.240 It's amazing. 01:26:25.240 --> 01:26:25.880 Yeah. 01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:26.840 Yeah. 01:26:26.840 --> 01:26:33.560 I think we're at a point where our favorite bands from like the 70s and 80s and also 90s, 01:26:33.560 --> 01:26:35.720 some of the people start to die there. 01:26:35.720 --> 01:26:38.440 Like AC/DC pretty much doesn't exist anymore. 01:26:38.440 --> 01:26:43.320 Because, you know, I think half of the band probably passed away at this point. 01:26:43.320 --> 01:26:47.240 But then like folks like Metallica, they are like 60 at this point. 01:26:47.240 --> 01:26:54.680 Like maybe another five, 10 years, they will start to just like pass away, which is which makes it very sad. 01:26:54.680 --> 01:26:59.080 But you know Mick Jagger and Rolling Stones will keep on going forever. 01:26:59.880 --> 01:27:02.680 Yeah, I just don't know how old they are. 01:27:02.680 --> 01:27:06.520 Like when I saw, when I saw, I think it was Steve Tyler of Aerosmith. 01:27:06.520 --> 01:27:06.920 Yeah. 01:27:06.920 --> 01:27:12.040 When I saw his like video clip like in the 90s, he already looked very old. 01:27:12.040 --> 01:27:13.480 Yeah, yeah. 01:27:13.480 --> 01:27:21.160 I saw one recently on Reddit of a live concert and he sounded like this is past it at this point. 01:27:21.160 --> 01:27:24.680 Right. But but yeah, I think the Rolling Stones somehow they keep rolling. 01:27:24.680 --> 01:27:25.640 Anyway. 01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:28.280 Yeah, Rolling Stones. 01:27:28.280 --> 01:27:28.520 Yes. 01:27:28.520 --> 01:27:33.880 Let me get to like one last more moment from that episode. 01:27:33.880 --> 01:27:40.200 And this was the randomness that they ran things with. 01:27:40.200 --> 01:27:41.160 Right. 01:27:41.160 --> 01:27:45.640 We asked them many times like, OK, so you did this. 01:27:45.640 --> 01:27:48.040 And why did you decide to go that way? 01:27:48.040 --> 01:27:49.960 Or why did you not decide to do this? 01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:55.480 And some of those decisions that they took, it worked really well and seemed... 01:27:55.480 --> 01:27:56.760 Actually, they weren't decisions. 01:27:56.760 --> 01:27:57.320 That's the point. 01:27:57.320 --> 01:27:58.840 They were just accidents. 01:27:58.840 --> 01:28:00.600 Exactly. 01:28:00.600 --> 01:28:03.640 But it felt like profound, right? 01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:07.160 Like, yeah, this is exactly what you did and it worked really well. 01:28:07.160 --> 01:28:09.000 Why did you decide to go that way? 01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:14.600 They're like, well, I just sent a message to Jake one day and we just started from there. 01:28:14.600 --> 01:28:17.320 The randomness of it all. 01:28:17.320 --> 01:28:21.640 And both of them, I felt they didn't want to schedule meetings. 01:28:21.640 --> 01:28:25.400 They want to basically just flow with the energy the whole time. 01:28:25.400 --> 01:28:26.120 Yeah. 01:28:26.120 --> 01:28:28.840 I remember how they said that nobody wanted to do any prep. 01:28:28.840 --> 01:28:29.640 Yes. 01:28:29.640 --> 01:28:30.520 Yes. 01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:36.920 And this really stuck with me is just how random it was. 01:28:36.920 --> 01:28:44.760 But because of the content and the insights that they had and the chemistry they had, it worked really well for them. 01:28:45.880 --> 01:28:46.360 Yes. 01:28:46.360 --> 01:28:51.800 I just want to say that on this note, I want to say that we love you, Jake and Jonathan. 01:28:51.800 --> 01:28:59.400 It made my day and I keep listening to it and it keeps making my day again and again. 01:28:59.400 --> 01:29:03.640 And I think if I'm depressed someday, this is the episode I'll turn it on. 01:29:03.640 --> 01:29:06.520 And the amount of laughs in there just makes me happy. 01:29:06.520 --> 01:29:10.280 Make sure you listen to it on the podcasting apps so you rake up our listen count. 01:29:10.280 --> 01:29:15.640 Okay, so last one thing is Jonathan was talking about the unscheduled CEO. 01:29:15.640 --> 01:29:19.720 And so he has been running a company for 12 years now. 01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:25.480 And it's pretty big at this point, pretty big as in like, I don't know, maybe 40, 50 employees. 01:29:25.480 --> 01:29:26.040 I'm sure. 01:29:26.040 --> 01:29:26.760 I don't know. 01:29:26.760 --> 01:29:28.200 But something like that, I think. 01:29:28.200 --> 01:29:31.000 But he doesn't have any meetings. 01:29:31.000 --> 01:29:34.840 He doesn't get involved in anything day to day. 01:29:35.240 --> 01:29:40.440 And I just found it amazing, right, that he's running a successful company like that. 01:29:40.440 --> 01:29:44.680 And it just doesn't go with how I thought about work before. 01:29:44.680 --> 01:29:44.920 Right. 01:29:44.920 --> 01:29:51.240 He said he's going to produce the unscheduled CEO as a sub stack and we'll kind of link to it. 01:29:51.240 --> 01:29:56.280 I really am interested in going back and reading all of that and kind of learning from him. 01:29:56.280 --> 01:29:59.880 Yeah, it's interesting because we recorded this episode. 01:29:59.880 --> 01:30:03.720 I mean, that episode like two weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago. 01:30:03.720 --> 01:30:07.880 November 21st, the day after the World Cup started. 01:30:07.880 --> 01:30:13.720 So, yeah, actually, we don't know if Jonathan will even produce that sub stack by that point. 01:30:13.720 --> 01:30:15.960 But if he did, you will find it in show notes. 01:30:15.960 --> 01:30:19.480 And on this note, we got to wrap up. 01:30:19.480 --> 01:30:21.320 Please subscribe to our show. 01:30:21.320 --> 01:30:23.640 Give us a five star rating. 01:30:23.640 --> 01:30:25.160 Well, I guess give us any rating. 01:30:25.160 --> 01:30:28.360 If you hated it, like, just give us a one star rating. 01:30:28.360 --> 01:30:30.600 We would love your feedback. 01:30:30.600 --> 01:30:34.760 But why would you give us a one star rating if you listened up to this point? 01:30:34.760 --> 01:30:34.760 Right. 01:30:34.760 --> 01:30:39.720 Give us any rating you like as long as it's five stars. 01:30:39.720 --> 01:30:41.160 Exactly, right? 01:30:41.160 --> 01:30:43.080 Like, we'll give you lots of options there. 01:30:43.080 --> 01:30:44.200 Yeah. 01:30:44.200 --> 01:30:45.880 But leave us a comment. 01:30:45.880 --> 01:30:52.200 I think this thing where we are doing episodes with guests and then doing a reflection episode, 01:30:52.200 --> 01:30:57.240 which we are calling Metasodes, we are slowly falling into that rhythm and kind of understanding 01:30:57.240 --> 01:30:58.200 how it works. 01:30:58.200 --> 01:31:03.880 So we would love to know if you're liking this style or like you want to hear about something else. 01:31:04.600 --> 01:31:05.560 Just let us know. 01:31:05.560 --> 01:31:06.040 Yeah. 01:31:06.040 --> 01:31:06.920 Yeah. 01:31:06.920 --> 01:31:12.600 We can talk more about keyboards and dogs and farts. 01:31:12.600 --> 01:31:14.040 Anyway. 01:31:14.040 --> 01:31:16.360 Bye bye. 01:31:16.360 --> 01:31:17.560 Yeah. 01:31:17.560 --> 01:31:17.800 Bye. 01:31:17.800 --> 01:31:19.800 I don't know. 01:31:19.800 --> 01:31:21.560 In the podcast, do you say have a good day? 01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:22.440 Have a good day. 01:31:22.440 --> 01:31:23.000 You do. 01:31:23.000 --> 01:31:25.240 Have a good day if it's a good day. 01:31:25.240 --> 01:31:25.480 Yeah. 01:31:25.480 --> 01:31:25.880 I guess. 01:31:25.880 --> 01:31:27.000 What are the rules, right? 01:31:27.000 --> 01:31:32.680 Like, like listener, wherever you are, like whatever you do, we hope you have a great day 01:31:32.680 --> 01:31:37.400 today and tomorrow and we hope that every day of your life is a great day. 01:31:37.400 --> 01:31:38.440 Unless it's not a great day. 01:31:38.440 --> 01:31:40.680 Optionality. 01:31:40.680 --> 01:31:43.160 Anyway, I'm stopping the recording now. 01:31:43.160 --> 01:31:44.920 See you next week. 01:31:44.920 --> 01:31:46.760 See you next week. 01:31:46.760 --> 01:31:53.000 Oh, I guess you will hear us next week.