WEBVTT

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 You get promoted and promoted till a point where you are no longer doing what you enjoy.

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 And either you adjust to that or you figure out again this is not for me.

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 And that's actually Peter's principle which says that everybody gets promoted to their

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 level of incompetence. So you always get like promoted out of the thing that you do well

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 until you don't do it well anymore. Hello, welcome to Metacast. Metasode whatever episode seven of

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 Metacast. Metasode three. You know I'm laughing right now because we've just spent an hour recording

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 an episode about podcasting where we we didn't talk about podcasting at all like nada zero.

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 Well I guess I guess we mentioned the word podcast like 20 times as in like now we have to get back

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 to podcasting and then we ended up talking about like comic books and comic books, sci-fi, movies, TV,

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 authors, kids these days having no attention span. Yeah.

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 I said Arnab Deka, my co-host and I'm Ilya Bezilev, your other co-host.

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 Hello everybody.

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 It's all cool. Yeah, so we had like a one hour warm up for this episode. So I think what we will do

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 is now we'll talk about podcasting finally. No more Sandman and other stuff. And for those of you who

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 are listening to this, so still listening to this. But they just started this episode just started.

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 Yeah, you will surprise how many people drop off without like listening much. I know that with my

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 YouTube videos. But I guess yeah anyway. It's the attention span India. Yes. So I think what we'll

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 do is the is the episode we've just recorded. We'll publish it as a bonus episode. It will be the next

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 episode. So now as you if you're listening to this, you're warned that the next episode is going to be

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 about various topics that are not related to podcasting, but still very well, you know,

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 at least Arnab and I really enjoyed it a lot. And yeah, we'll just publish it.

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 It may not be the next episode because we may have a guest episode next, but whatever episode it is,

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 we'll put it in the beginning, right? I suggest we just publish it like off at the off cycle. Yeah,

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 I don't mess up the numbering. So okay, so our episodes come out on Wednesdays. I say let's publish

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 that bonus episode on Saturday. And if people listen to this on on on Wednesday or Thursday,

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 if you want to listen to something fun, that's a good episode for a weekend. It's very light and lots

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 of recommendations. Well, there is lots of stuff about sci fi there. So if you're really into like

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 Fifty Shades of Grey, and you don't like Dune or Isaac Asimov and other stuff, well, I guess don't

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 listen to it. All right. If you if you are somebody who likes either one of comics or sci fi or movies or

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 TV or books or audio books, listen to that episode. Or music? Music, yes. If you're a human, if you're a

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 life person who actually likes some art, you will enjoy it. Yes. It may turn out to be another one hour

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 about something. No, no, let's not do that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So today, actually, maybe we should do

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 this. Today is December 20th. That's when we recorded this. And earlier today, we recorded an

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 episode with Steph Colborne, who is the CEO and owner of Edit Audio, which is a full suite podcast

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 production company. So that's the episode that came out last week. I mean, last week when these

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 episodes come out. When you're listening. Yeah. Yeah. In February. Yeah. In February. So the

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 previous time we did this meta-sode, we waited for like a week or two weeks and we listened to the

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 recording. So we digested a lot of those insights over and over and over before recording the meta-sode.

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 But now we are doing it very raw. It's just been maybe 12 hours since we recorded the episode.

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 No, it's been 12 hours. And this time we haven't listened to what we talked about at all. So it's

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 literally the reflections from the episode. Yeah. I have a few notes that I want to start with.

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 Sure. So first of all, I had a terrible headache. Yesterday, actually yesterday you and I were chatting

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 until a very late hour. I went to bed at one. I was also doing some work afterwards and I woke up at

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 like 6:50 or so. And I had this terrible headache this morning. So when we recorded this episode,

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 I wasn't the best self. Also like Steph, we didn't meet her before. You were supposed to join five

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 minutes before it started. You joined later and she joined ahead of time. Before me, yes.

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 Before you, yes. Because basically you and I were supposed to like, you know, huddle for a few

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 minutes. So we kind of strategize about the interview. And then actually she joined before

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 you. And I'm like, I'm still doing my setup. It's like three minutes before we start the recording.

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 And yeah, the shape of it just pops up in the squad cast. And yeah, I have to like,

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 maintain this, you know, small talk and I have this headache. And generally, like, I'm being like,

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 very tense. And I felt the first few minutes were kind of awkward for me. Because I also like,

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 my experience to hearing Steph talk was at the PostLite podcast episode 300, where she was a guest.

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 Yeah, for context. PostLite is a great show by the PostLite Software Development Agency,

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 where two founders, Rich and Paul, talk about all sorts of different stuff, mainly about technology.

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 Really, really cool podcast. Love it a lot. Actually, I think we modeled some of our stuff after them.

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 Yeah, we can give them credit for that.

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 They definitely don't model after us. So it's the other way around.

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 Not yet. Not yet.

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 Yeah, but now Steph goes back and like, tells them what they need to model after us, right?

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 So yeah, she produced like over 200 of their episodes. So she knows them really, really well.

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 In that episode where she was a guest, they had that chemistry. And you know, when she was with us,

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 it was a different person. Not a different person. But it's like, we didn't have that same background,

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 that same personal connection. So we had to like, build that up. And I guess what was challenging for

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 me, unlike, let's say, Jack and Jonathan, I mean, I think we connected with them like right away,

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 just because, I don't know, maybe we have similar backgrounds. And I don't know, just some reason,

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 it was very, very easy to connect. Right.

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 With Steph, I mean, she's like easy going and all. But I felt a bit of that awkwardness for the first

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 maybe 10-15 minutes. Yeah.

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 Actually, I wonder how it will come out on the recording. Did you feel the same way?

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 I felt the same. Like when I joined, she was already there. And I think when we,

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 and we started the recording like within about five minutes too, I think, of me joining.

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 Yeah, because we had a hard stop. And we wanted to make sure that we make use of the time. Yeah.

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 Yeah. And I did feel that. And I think about half an hour into the episode, that's when I felt like,

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 okay, this is going very smooth now. Unfolding.

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 And then, then my stream started lagging and that became like a different problem altogether.

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 We'll probably talk about that too.

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 No, let's talk about that actually right now, because that was also a problem.

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 Because like, one of the things I have in my notes is that, you know, as I was editing the

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 Jake and Jonathan episode and also Brian's episode, I noticed how great you are, Arnab, at just like

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 maintaining the conversation. Just like saying things that, you know, aren't necessarily questions,

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 but just like comments and how that kind of maybe reinforces the point that people are saying.

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 And, and they're like, oh yeah. And they're like, they go on another tangent or something.

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 You are really good at that. You're a very good conversationalist, I guess.

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 So I was relying on you, especially that I had this terrible headache. And the, and your connection

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 was like, you know, it's like, you would say something and they would start talking about

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 something else. Like 10 seconds later, Arnab says something that's relevant to what was said,

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 like, you know, half a minute ago. It was so disruptive because, because of connection issues,

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 your video was pixelated and maybe because you had like a foot of snow in Vancouver.

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 So we had a major like snowstorm yesterday. It might be that, um, we also tested it out after

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 that session, right? Like it was still kind of that, but might have been my Mac. I haven't rebooted

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 my Mac in like maybe a month. I don't know. So my lesson is like, yeah, Apple is not the same

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 after Steve jobs passed away. Yeah. Uh, but anyway, I think my experience was like,

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 I was hearing your stuff, right. Coming from you and Steph, and then I would say something and you

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 would like almost talk over me. And then after a bit you would pause and like, it was very awkward.

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 And I didn't realize that it was my stream slow because most of the talking, of course,

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 it's a guest episode. So it was Steph talking. So I didn't realize that it was me. I thought maybe

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 it's Steph who is receiving it. Uh, and then there's a lag on her side receiving my stream because you

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 were reacting to it faster, but that's probably because you were not talking much, right? You were

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 asking the questions and prompting her. Later on, I realized that, but I think it was almost like too

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 late to salvage at that point. Yeah. I tried to speak very little after that because it was becoming

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 very jarring. Yeah. Yeah. So that one might sound, uh, kind of a bit weird because like, yeah,

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 I was not in a good shape and yeah, you didn't have your internet connection.

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 Hmm. I am curious how much as we were recording, I had a thought that this episode would be really

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 hard to edit because of all the lag and all that. I don't know what the, you are the sound person in

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 here. So what do you think technically, like, is it going to create complexities?

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 No, I think everything is on its own separate track. And whenever you were saying something where,

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 where it was kind of disruptive, you know, because of the delays, basically everybody would stop.

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 Okay. And, um, and then like start over. So we will just have to cut out those entire pieces of,

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 I think, you know, so for people to understand what was going on, it's, it's like, imagine you're in

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 a zoom call with like 20 people and then three people start to talk at the same time. Yeah.

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 And then people like, Oh, you go ahead. No, no, you, you go ahead. And then all three of them again,

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 start talking at the same time. I have to plug in. There is an excellent YouTube video about this,

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 like conference calls. Uh, I don't remember what it was, but we led it to the show notes.

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 It was like spot on exactly what you're talking about. Hilarious.

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 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I actually asked Steph a question about like, what do you do in those like moments when you meet

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 people who you don't know and, but you have to like hit record right away. Like, what do you do?

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 So she gave an advice that maybe you start with some rapid fire questions just to warm, warm it up. But then you

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 throw all of that content out. You basically don't keep it. Use it. Uh, you only keep the stuff where

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 the conversation, well, the other parties already can warm, or I guess you can have built some of that

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 connection. So, so yeah, uh, I'm actually really curious to hear now what the end result will sound

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 because actually I had this before when I was doing my, uh, other, the Russian podcast. I had this where

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 I felt like the connection maybe wasn't quite there or maybe the content was boring or I felt like,

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 you know, it might come out kind of as boring, but then I would edit and listen to it. And I'm like,

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 yeah, it actually sounds good. So we may also be overthinking this. Actually, one, one thing that,

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 um, maybe many people can relate to is like, imagine you doing the public speaking, uh, thing and public

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 speaking, it doesn't have to be like in front of a like thousand people at the conference, but sometimes,

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 you know, you just like in front of your team, maybe like 10 people, you have to say something like

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 present whatever. And, uh, maybe you don't feel confident and your, your entire body may be

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 shaking if you are not like comfortable with public speaking. And then you come out and you say, and

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 you feel nervous and you feel like shit, but then you watch the recording and it's actually okay.

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 Cause it doesn't come across, uh, like you were able to like control that. And then it makes you

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 more comfortable, like doing it the next time and next time and next time until it just becomes

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 naturally just like go out and talk because like all of this stuff that you've made up about,

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 like all these people are judging me or whatever, it's actually non-existent.

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 Right. I mean, to be fair, I didn't think it was bad. We'll see when it comes out,

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 but I think the conversation went pretty smooth, but it was kind of awkward in the beginning because we

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 hadn't warmed up and in the end, because there was a lot of like technical hiccups with the stream lagging.

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 Yeah. Yeah. I think also for us, uh, like the first episode we recorded with Brian, we actually had

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 a pre-call with him. So we had this opportunity to build the connection for the, for, you know,

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 for 30 minutes. And I think Jake and Jonathan actually, I think we chatted for maybe 10 minutes,

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 but they were like, their backgrounds are similar to ours. So it was like very easy to immediately jump in.

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 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Jake and I actually even worked at the same company. So yeah, it was very easy to connect.

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 Yeah. So, so yeah. I wonder what's, what's the lesson for us here for the next time we talk to

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 somebody who we don't know and maybe even somebody who we have not even heard before talk.

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 I think that I like the warmup questions, uh, like a set, set up questions a lot, um, and throwing it away.

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 But if something interesting comes up, maybe we make a note and add them into the episode.

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 Yeah. I'm terrible. Like small talk. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not so good either,

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 but I think we'll get better and better at it. Plus the guests that we bring on our podcasters

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 and they're, uh, they're seasoned podcasters so far, at least, and they are pretty good at small talk.

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 So, so there is one guest that I hope to schedule. So I will not disclose the names or anything,

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 but, uh, this guy was a product manager for a reputable microphone production,

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 microphone manufacturing company. And he launched, um, microphones that I have used before. So he is

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 not a podcaster, but he knows a lot about the technology and microphones and sound. So it would

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 be really cool to actually have him on the show and, uh, talk about all these different things that

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 matter, right? Sound wise. But when we talk to him, it's possible that for the first time we hear

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 like the voice, the manner of speech, we might hear it for the first time when we actually do the recording.

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 So, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll see how it goes, but yeah, we need to strategize more about like,

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 how do we warm up, uh, when, uh, yeah, like we don't know the person well enough.

00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:08.960
 Yeah. And most people I think do a pre-call, but, uh, we can't, these people are busy and we are doing like,

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 we are doing two, one episode a week now. So we, we are also like running short of time. So yeah.

00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:19.280
 Yeah. Metasodes are very easy to schedule. Yeah. Metasodes are easy to schedule, but it does take

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 time, like post-processing and everything. And we have started doing primisodes now too.

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 I won't bore you with the details of what, but those are like bonus episodes that we didn't end up

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 talking anything about podcast. So yeah, we should call the, we should call it the bonus primis out.

00:16:37.760 --> 00:16:43.360
 Yes. I like it. Sounds like a primis or like whatever, like a prime number dinosaur.

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 I don't know. Oh, it's a terrible joke. If my son heard, he would do a face palm at this point.

00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:05.600
 So, so another learning for me is restart my Mac before, before recording the episode. Yeah.

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 Yeah. Actually I had this thing also when I, so I unlocked my computer, I open all those windows

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 with my notes. And so by the way, the setup I have, I have, I have squad cast in half of my screen

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 where I'm looking at, uh, so I can see the video of the people like you and, and the guests. And on the

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 other half of the screen, I have my notes with like the plan of the things to ask about, uh, you know,

00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:37.920
 the talking points. Yeah. I do the same. Yeah. Yeah. So as, as I did that setup, my trackpad on my

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 Mac was lagging. I use an external, external trackpad and I was like, it doesn't feel good. Maybe I have

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 too many things open and my computer just lags. And I'm like, I hope it doesn't affect anything.

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 So I kind of started to freak out a little bit because it was almost time to do the recording and I

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 didn't have enough, uh, you know, time to do the restart also because I have to like open all

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 those windows and all. So yeah, I guess like lesson here is maybe get into your computer 15 minutes

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 before the recording. Just restart just in case. Yeah. Start fresh. Don't reopen all the windows

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 because I have stuff open like iZotope and Reaper and all that. To be honest, I think that was it.

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 Cause I had, uh, like a few, uh, no JS projects running with hot reloading open for like, I don't

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 know, a few weeks now. I had a couple of Android studio, uh, with like couple of mobile apps running

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 with simulators for a couple of weeks to Microsoft flight simulator. No, like, uh, iOS simulator and

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 Android simulator. Yeah. Microsoft flight simulator running. I don't think I would have been able to

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 record at all. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Remember how Jake and John were talking about how they tried to do.

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 Oh yeah. Mario Kart. Oh my God. That is a crazy idea. But if they had pulled it off,

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 that would have been an amazing episode. But we need to provide more context. Remember,

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 so they tried to do an episode where they play Mario Kart and record a podcast episode at the same time.

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 Yes. Uh, they didn't disclose the details, but they said it didn't work out quite well.

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 Yeah. I think it was supposed to be about the UX of Mario Kart.

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 Oh yeah. Yeah. That would have been a crazy cool episode if that had happened. So yeah. Anyway.

00:19:24.800 --> 00:19:29.520
 Yeah. It might've been actually better like Twitch stream. Yeah. So you also see the video. Yeah.

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 Actually I'm, I'm going to gift my son a Nintendo switch for, uh, for, yeah, for Christmas. So we just

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 like people listening to this like February 16th and they're like, what is going on? But yeah,

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 we're recording this in December. So yeah, I'm actually looking forward to playing some Mario

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 on Street Fighter on the console. Yeah. Uh, we love like when we got it, I think it was a couple of

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 years back. We used to play like the whole family, like me, my wife and my daughter. We used to play

00:19:56.560 --> 00:20:02.880
 it every night for like half an hour. Okay. Well, you have good self-control because I cannot play

00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:07.200
 a game for half an hour. No, I mean, we'll have to go to sleep and we'll have to take my daughter to

00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.920
 sleep. So there was a definite deadline, but I think we are about to start another episode about,

00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:17.280
 about stuff. Instead of getting into stuff, let's get back into Steph.

00:20:17.280 --> 00:20:24.480
 Yes. Into Steph. Yeah. So the thing I thought actually could be useful to talk about is, uh,

00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:29.360
 both in our episode and also in the post light, uh, episode 300, where she was a guest,

00:20:29.360 --> 00:20:36.240
 she mentioned, uh, the tool called iZotope. So it's spelled as I-Z-O or whatever, iZotope.

00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:43.600
 I-Z-O or Z-O if you're outside the U.S. If you like write iZotope. Yeah. Uh, but instead of S,

00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:49.520
 you replace it with a Z, like iZotope. Uh, but then it's like, like a small letter I and then like

00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:55.600
 capital Z or Zed. If you're in Europe and you're pedantic about how we in America say things.

00:20:55.600 --> 00:21:05.360
 Or Canada. Oh yeah. Can they also say Zed? Yes. Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead. Zed's the right way.

00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:12.560
 Zed's the right way. Oh. Zed's the right way. But that's, that's German, right? Yes.

00:21:12.560 --> 00:21:19.760
 So by the way, yeah. Our, our guest of our second episode, Brian McCullough, he wanted to become

00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:25.440
 Quentin Torantino. Yes. But unfortunately, Quentin Torantino was already there in existence.

00:21:25.600 --> 00:21:30.320
 Right. So Brian McCullough couldn't become him. He had to become Brian. So, but yeah,

00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:34.720
 but he was talking about, uh, we were talking about Pulp Fiction a little bit. So that Zed's dead baby.

00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:40.400
 That's a line from Pulp Fiction. Uh, and in any case, so going back to iZotope,

00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:46.400
 I think there's a suite of products that they have for, I think they call it the sound repair or audio

00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:52.320
 repair. Um, so apparently, you know, reading their website, people use it for like music, for

00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.520
 podcasting, for TV production, right? For, uh, movie production where you have some,

00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:03.360
 maybe some glitches in the background that you like, you don't want to reshoot the entire scene

00:22:03.360 --> 00:22:07.360
 for. Yeah. Actually. Yeah. Especially if you think about like movies or like news.

00:22:07.360 --> 00:22:12.640
 Wait, it does video also, or just the audio? No, no, but like, like, I guess when we produce a video,

00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:19.840
 you separate audio and video, you can edit the audio track separate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Make it better.

00:22:19.840 --> 00:22:26.800
 Right. The tool that she was talking about is called the iZotope RX. I think it's like repair effects

00:22:26.800 --> 00:22:31.920
 or something. I don't know if she, I don't know what RX stands for. I have a version nine and the most

00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:38.400
 current version is 10 right now. So RX 10 is the current version that you can buy. It costs $500. The one that I

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:46.160
 have. And, uh, they have, I think a more expensive one that has more, more, more things, but I thought

00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:52.720
 we would just go through the things that RX nine has just, uh, to let people know a little bit more

00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.760
 about that and maybe upsell people on RX nine. I mean, we don't, we don't get paid for talking about

00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:04.960
 that. Uh, unfortunately, uh, but maybe fortunate because like if three people listen to this episode and

00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:11.760
 nobody buys it, you're like, okay. So it's not upsell. It's up recommend. Yeah. I recommend. Yeah. It's

00:23:11.760 --> 00:23:17.680
 just like a general recommendation. I really love that suite of tools. I think it's $500 very well, uh, spent. Uh,

00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:25.200
 uh, so the way it works, you can import an audio file into that program and then you, you can, uh,

00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:31.840
 do, you know, apply those, uh, repair filters and then you can export that file and then continue

00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:39.040
 editing that file elsewhere, like in pro tools or logic. And is this the tool that she mentioned that

00:23:39.040 --> 00:23:43.200
 you can apply the filter to a specific segment or does it apply to the whole?

00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:48.480
 That's a different tool. Yeah. That, uh, that was Amadeus. Uh, I haven't used it. Uh, yeah,

00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:53.440
 I'll need to take a look at it because I'm curious actually what she means there. And, uh, yeah,

00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:58.400
 I would like to do some more research and, but yeah, but as a job, I've used it before. So, uh,

00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:02.960
 I think it's cool to talk about it. So that's one way to use the tool. You import the audio file,

00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:08.720
 you apply the filters, you export, and then you edit it elsewhere. All of those effects,

00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:14.480
 all those filters are also available as what's called VST plugins. I don't know what VST stands

00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:22.160
 for. Just give me a sec. Virtual studio technology. Interesting. So it sounds like it's a, it's the name

00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:31.600
 of a company that produced this. Yeah. So VST was developed by a specific company in 1996. So I wonder

00:24:31.600 --> 00:24:37.040
 if it's one of those cases where, you know, in Russia, nobody calls photocopiers, photocopiers.

00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:43.840
 You know what they're called? No. Xerox. Xerox. Yes. Xerox. Yeah. So it's like a verb. So if you

00:24:43.840 --> 00:24:49.760
 want to copy a piece of paper, you Xerox that. Yes. So also nobody drives SUVs. Do you know what

00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:59.280
 they drive? Um, let me guess. Jeeps. Jeeps. Yes. That's true in India too. In fact, that reminds me

00:24:59.280 --> 00:25:06.480
 in Canada, the name for a couch, the one that you sit on, it's like something really insane. I'll pull it

00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:12.880
 up. Yeah. So also, also like the Scotch tape, it's just called the Scotch. And I had no idea why

00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:19.440
 until I moved to the U S and then I saw the Scotch brand on the shelves and I'm like, Oh,

00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:24.560
 so that's why Scotch tape is called, you know, it's called Scotch because I never used the Scotch tape

00:25:24.560 --> 00:25:29.840
 because I used whatever the local, you know, equivalence of that was. Right. So in Canada,

00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:36.240
 a couch, uh, guess what? It's called a Chesterfield. And the first time I heard it, I was like,

00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:42.160
 what? Yeah. Anyway, it's a brand name. So yeah. Got it. Yeah. Chesterfield does sound

00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:46.240
 like a brand name of some kind of like shoes or tea. So something from England.

00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:55.440
 Yeah. But it's like no way connected to, I guess, Jeep isn't really connected to a vehicle unless you

00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.280
 happen to know about it beforehand, which a lot of, most people would know about it.

00:26:00.080 --> 00:26:05.040
 Anyway. So coming back to iZotope, I was talking about the VST. So there's this technology called

00:26:05.040 --> 00:26:12.000
 the VST plugins. What you can do if you use a tool like Pro Tools or Logic or Reaper, you can apply

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:17.120
 those VST plugins to the track. So what happens is, let's say you have your, your track, let's say your

00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:24.000
 voice with like raw, unprocessed form that we've recorded in Squadcast. And when we apply the filter,

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.440
 actually, I think they call the effects. We apply the effect, let's call, let's use the correct

00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:32.720
 terminology. We apply the effect. Let's say the first thing I see here in iZotope is breath control.

00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:39.040
 So we apply the breath control filter. And then, then I can turn some knobs and set it up such that

00:26:39.040 --> 00:26:46.160
 it lowers the volume of the breaths. So it detects when you breathe and then it lower, it lowers those

00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:54.160
 down. Then the next thing I might add is the bleed. That's next one on the list. So it's like,

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:59.440
 if you're bleeding, I could help you with that. Using AI software, you know.

00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:14.720
 So when you have two microphones in the same room and two people are talking. So let's say if you and

00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:19.600
 I were sitting in the same room and I was talking, your mic will pick up my voice as well. And my mic

00:27:19.600 --> 00:27:27.200
 would pick your voice. And that's what it's called bleed over. Where, especially when maybe like,

00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:34.560
 I see something and you laugh, and then your laugh is now on my track. And what dbleed does is it

00:27:34.560 --> 00:27:42.080
 actually removes, I guess, the stuff that bleed over, I guess, bled over from your, from you into my mic.

00:27:42.080 --> 00:27:43.360
 So it kind of decouples.

00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:48.960
 So is this, is this a, is Isotope a machine learning based tool or how does it do it?

00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.160
 I think, yeah, I think it is. I think, I think it's machine learning based because some of those

00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:58.480
 plugins, you have to train them first. So you give them a small piece of, of audio and then you like

00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:03.520
 learn. So it kind of trains and then it uses, it picks the right settings for you.

00:28:03.520 --> 00:28:09.840
 Yeah. So then, then the next one is, so let's say I first apply breath control and apply dbleed. And then

00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:15.920
 maybe the next thing I apply is equalizer, which also could be a VST plugin, et cetera, et cetera. And

00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:23.360
 then that's how we create an effects chain that, um, like sequentially is applied to the track. So let's

00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:28.560
 say first we remove the breaths, then next thing, you know, we remove that bleeding from the track. And

00:28:28.560 --> 00:28:34.960
 then, and then, and then only to the output of that, we apply the EQ. So the, so the, the order,

00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:40.880
 the order matters. Yes. Like when I produced our first three episodes, before we handed off the

00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:46.800
 production to, um, to a sound engineer, uh, starting from the fourth episode, I think it had like five

00:28:46.800 --> 00:28:53.040
 or six effects on each of our tracks. And then they had another one on like the combined voice tracks.

00:28:53.040 --> 00:28:57.440
 And also there's also one on like the master, the master output. So yeah, we won't go into all of this.

00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:04.640
 Is there filters for like clicks and pops or? Yeah. So the next one in Azotope is this D click.

00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:10.160
 So that's where it removes the mouth clicks. And, uh, so yeah, I guess to our listeners,

00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:15.760
 listen to our first episode. We actually have an example of those mouth clicks. Yeah. Towards the

00:29:15.760 --> 00:29:20.400
 end of the episode. Yeah. It's so interesting clicks. Now, sometimes I, I listen to an episode,

00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:26.320
 I mean, not ours, somebody else's who don't have, you know, good production quality. Uh,

00:29:26.320 --> 00:29:34.480
 and then I hear those clicks and, uh, they aren't really super audible, but when you remove them,

00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:40.160
 it just thinks the thing starts to sound better. The next one is D clip. So clipping sound is like

00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:45.520
 when you have your volume to, I guess when you laugh and your gain is too high on the microphone,

00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:51.840
 your, uh, your kind of high frequencies kind of cut out. If you listen to the Jake and Jonathan episode,

00:29:51.840 --> 00:29:58.560
 when Jonathan loves his AirPods actually cut out, like the sound clips, and it's hard to explain it.

00:29:58.560 --> 00:30:04.400
 You have to hear it, but it's like, you don't hear the full thing. It's like, I don't know. Just imagine

00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:10.400
 talking very loudly to a microphone on a very loud volume and you start to see the distortion, uh,

00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:17.520
 coming out of it. The next one is D crackle. So it's like when, uh, actually D crackle, I don't

00:30:17.520 --> 00:30:22.560
 know how exactly it works. I'll just skip that. Then there is DS. Actually, I think in both your

00:30:22.560 --> 00:30:30.320
 speech and my speech, because English is not our native language. I think our S is, it sounds terrible,

00:30:30.320 --> 00:30:36.720
 but like, yeah, uh, the way we pronounce the word S. Uh, so the sound S isn't too terrible, but, uh,

00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:43.440
 I think for English speakers, maybe because they pronounce it differently, that S could be so, um,

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:50.720
 it's like, it hurts ears, you know, ears when you hear the S sound. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:54.800
 There's like, there's like too much of it. Uh, and it's like disruptive. Uh, it could like really hurt,

00:30:54.800 --> 00:31:00.800
 you know, it's not pleasant. So DS filter kind of makes it, um, it kind of, I guess, cuts out some

00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:07.040
 of that, uh, S sound makes it, uh, more pleasant to, to, to the ear. When you said DS, I thought it

00:31:07.040 --> 00:31:18.960
 removes fart sounds. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Yeah.

00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:24.000
 Yeah. Well, every time I was saying like the S sound, uh, that's exactly what I was thinking

00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:30.000
 about. And I was trying to keep my cool and not to laugh. Hoping that listeners would, would get it.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:35.200
 But, uh, yeah, you helped. If, if anybody didn't get it, you made it obvious. Yes.

00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:41.760
 Yeah. S. All right. Yeah. You, you, you, you've, you've definitely learned your lessons from dog

00:31:41.760 --> 00:31:46.160
 man. Right. And if you don't know what we are talking about, wait for the next weekend and listen

00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:55.040
 to our bonus. Prime is out. Prime is out. Yes. Yes. So next one is S. Next one is D hum. And, uh,

00:31:55.040 --> 00:32:01.360
 hum being things like washing machine running in the, you know, in the next room, or like the AC hum,

00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:06.560
 air conditioning or like a fridge. So that stuff is like, when you're in the room, you just get used

00:32:06.560 --> 00:32:11.360
 to it so much. Yeah. You don't hear it. But like when you listen to your recording, you're like,

00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:16.720
 oh my God, it's like terrible. And then D hum, I think that's actually where it uses machine learning.

00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:22.000
 Yeah. The, I think it learns from the pauses because when you don't speak the hum,

00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:27.520
 what you hear is just the hum and noise, right? The room, room sound. Yeah. The room sound. Yeah.

00:32:27.520 --> 00:32:32.640
 The room tone. And then hum, hum is part of room tone and it can remove some of that from the,

00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:39.680
 from, from the, you know, where the voice is. The next one is Diplosive, which is again,

00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:43.600
 I think for us not being the native speakers, I think we don't pronounce

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:50.160
 you know, like the native speakers do. Right. Actually, I was hearing to Brian,

00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:55.920
 I think it was Brian. I think his clauses were pretty loud. Right. And I'm like,

00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:00.160
 great that we have this filter. Right. Because actually I never had to use it with the Russian

00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:06.320
 speakers. Right. I guess we just pronounce, you know, peas differently. And also that's where you,

00:33:06.320 --> 00:33:11.360
 you need to use the pop filter. Like I'm having right now, like this kind of mesh in front of the

00:33:11.360 --> 00:33:17.680
 microphone. Oh, also on some mics, you have these foamy things that are like put on top of the mic.

00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:24.800
 You might've seen those. Yeah. So that they help kind of contain some of those plosive sounds,

00:33:24.800 --> 00:33:32.240
 but yeah, isotope RX helps to remove them further. Uh, then you have D-reverb, which is like, yeah,

00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:38.160
 if you have echo in the room, which actually my recording now has echo and, um, yeah,

00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:43.440
 we will apply D-reverb to make it sound less echoey. Uh, then there was a guitar D-noise,

00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:51.280
 I guess, which is for music. Um, that's pretty cool that like, so do you, in your experience,

00:33:51.280 --> 00:33:56.720
 I mean, you're pretty experienced with all this, would a new podcaster be able to just basically

00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:03.280
 pay $500, install this and start using it? Or do they need like deep knowledge of sound and all that?

00:34:03.280 --> 00:34:09.040
 No, I think, I think they can do it because, um, I mean, I guess I'll just, I'll just stop here.

00:34:09.040 --> 00:34:15.040
 I guess the other thing I mentioned, there is a voice D-noise filter where it actually learns what

00:34:15.040 --> 00:34:19.840
 your voice sounds like and it can filter out the noise in the background. Like I think the thing,

00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:25.680
 the use case for this is like, if there was like a reporter in the middle of a street, right. And there

00:34:25.680 --> 00:34:31.040
 is just a lot of noise going on. Or in the world cup. So yeah, like a world cup or something. Right.

00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:37.040
 So like if you have the hum, the noise is constant. Right. Kind of the noise has a constant profile,

00:34:37.040 --> 00:34:44.400
 but with the noise outside, your voice has a constant profile more or less, but the noise outside is

00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:50.000
 random. You have like a siren of a firetruck passing by and voice D-noise helps to filter that out,

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:58.160
 make, make the voice stand out, uh, more. This is the D-fart one. Yes. Okay. Not the DS, but the D-noise.

00:34:58.160 --> 00:35:04.720
 Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And there's a bunch of stuff to hear like EQ and others. So coming back

00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:11.280
 to your question, this tool is so easy to use. I mean, I saw some videos of people doing like crazy

00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:16.640
 stuff. They would look at this, I think it's called the spectrogram, which is like this waveform that's

00:35:16.640 --> 00:35:21.840
 colored with all these different colors. And they look at this as if it was like a, like, like,

00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:26.800
 imagine like a Photoshop image, right? Right. Like, like a photograph, you open it in Photoshop,

00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:31.440
 and then there is like a scar or something on the face. Right. Right. And, and you want to kind of

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:36.960
 retouch, is there, is the right word? Yeah. Like that, uh, part and use like a tool that makes it look

00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.600
 like, you know, the skin next to it. And then like, all of a sudden you have a person with no scar,

00:35:41.600 --> 00:35:47.040
 which is, uh, you know, uh, amazing. Right. That's what this tool allows to do. And I'm like,

00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:52.880
 I'm not doing this. Like if you're NPR, you probably would do that. But like for our stuff,

00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:58.080
 like I'm not spending hours and hours and hours using this tool to the full extent, but, but this

00:35:58.080 --> 00:36:03.520
 tool is worth its money, even if you don't use that. So things like breath control, it saves you time

00:36:03.520 --> 00:36:10.240
 on not having to cut those breaths manually. Uh, things like a mouth click, you just, you just

00:36:10.240 --> 00:36:13.680
 enabled and it just works. That's what I like, I like about it. Right. Uh, you don't even have to

00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:19.200
 play with settings really. Uh, and then D reverb, you just, basically the only knob I use is like,

00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:25.040
 how much do you, do you remove the echo? You can basically change the sensitivity of that. And then

00:36:25.040 --> 00:36:29.680
 you can hear like, if you remove it too much, the voice starts to sound unnatural. So you just,

00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:35.040
 you know, you just, you just play with it. So even just these three filters, they, they're worth,

00:36:35.040 --> 00:36:39.040
 uh, and also DS and Deplosive. Uh, I think those are really worth the 500 bucks.

00:36:39.040 --> 00:36:45.520
 Yeah. If you're native speakers. Yeah. I think this is the one I have asked you before too. I have a dog

00:36:45.520 --> 00:36:50.320
 who's very attached to me. Right. And when we record these sessions, I locked the door

00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:54.880
 and he's outside. He's not with me. Otherwise he's pretty much always right next to me.

00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.000
 And you would have seen him in like, when we meet, he's like,

00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:02.880
 So on my Instagram, uh, product hacks, why am I saying this again?

00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:05.120
 Breakfast product hacks.

00:37:05.120 --> 00:37:12.640
 Jake and Jonathan hacks. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I should just call it Jake and John. It will be easier. Uh,

00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:17.360
 yeah. Podcast hacks. I think that's what I called my Instagram. Uh, I should post a picture of

00:37:18.240 --> 00:37:25.840
 me and your dog because, because he also was very affectionate to me. Yes. But, uh, what happens is

00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:31.360
 he's always wants to be next to me. And when I record, he's outside and I keep him outside because

00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:37.120
 if I keep him inside, he'd want to go out once in a while to check on things. And you can't do that.

00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:42.960
 Keep opening it again and again. So I keep him outside. So he whines quite a lot when we're recording.

00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:49.200
 And I think these filters that you're using basically removes it because I've asked you

00:37:49.200 --> 00:37:54.800
 quite a few times, like I can hear him pretty loud sometimes. Like this morning he was whining because

00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:59.040
 there was nobody else in the house. And it was like, what's going on? Why is the door closed?

00:37:59.040 --> 00:38:04.480
 Why can't I come next to you? Yeah. And I think these filters definitely help in that.

00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:09.840
 I wish I could take the credit, but actually I didn't use those filters. What I do is I cut

00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:15.680
 out the pieces where you don't talk. Right. And I think a lot of the times when you're aware of

00:38:15.680 --> 00:38:22.080
 boomer whining or scratching or something is actually when you don't speak. Right. And I,

00:38:22.080 --> 00:38:28.240
 I do hear those and, but I just, as a, as a, as a rule, I cut out all of the silence where, you know,

00:38:28.240 --> 00:38:32.880
 when like I'm speaking and you're not speaking, I've cut out all of your silence. So, so that's why

00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:38.880
 those, you know, the dog doesn't make it to the record. Right. But when you talk and maybe he's

00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:45.920
 scratching or something, actually leave those in because it's just so painful to apply that filter to

00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:52.000
 that specific piece because you don't want to apply it to the whole thing because any kind of

00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:58.080
 operation is destructive by nature. It takes, you know, it reduces the quality. Yes. I was going to

00:38:58.080 --> 00:39:03.360
 talk about this because in the first episode, you talked about garbage in, garbage out. Yes.

00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:09.840
 In spite of all these tools at your disposal, I think the main thing is try to record,

00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:15.840
 actually listen to the first episodes. You, you go into depth about this, but essentially

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:23.360
 the point is if you have garbage in your input, which is your raw recording, like there's noise

00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:29.520
 going on, AC going on, humidifier, whatever the heck going on. In spite of all these filters,

00:39:29.520 --> 00:39:35.920
 they will do their work in removing that, but they'll also reduce the final output quality

00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:42.720
 because they've removed so much stuff. So try to keep the input at a high quality level itself.

00:39:42.720 --> 00:39:50.480
 Yes. Yeah. Especially the denoise ones. Yes. Um, because I think, because they're very smart filters,

00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:56.640
 but they're not like crazy smart. So it's also, it's almost like it's easier to rely on your listeners

00:39:56.640 --> 00:40:03.200
 brain filtering out the noise because it will, uh, unless it's, unless it's super excessive, uh, then to use

00:40:03.200 --> 00:40:10.000
 those filters. You know, one way to think about that is I assume, you know, most of our listeners used

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:16.560
 zoom and, uh, in the last couple of years, those zoom backgrounds became popular. Other tools have

00:40:16.560 --> 00:40:21.200
 it as well. Google meet has this thing where you can just like upload an image and have a background

00:40:21.200 --> 00:40:27.440
 of whatever. But what you see there is you can immediately see that this is a fake background

00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:34.000
 because that line between your face or the face of the person you're looking at and their background is

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:39.360
 not kind of clear cut, you know? Yeah. It's not like it's neatly photoshopped. It's actually very crude

00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:45.440
 and it could like overlap. And there are some artifacts. It's a deep fake. Yeah. Like, like if you've

00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:50.080
 ever seen those recordings or like those meeting meetings, um, you know, it's kind of

00:40:50.720 --> 00:40:56.400
 Nah, I would rather look at, yeah, I would rather look at your curtains and, uh, like a cabinet in your

00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:02.160
 background than to look at that fake image that like constantly overlaps with your face and stuff.

00:41:02.160 --> 00:41:09.280
 But that's how I think about those destructive filters as well. Yeah. Sometimes it's better to just

00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:16.960
 keep it raw than to cut it out. Okay. So yeah, so that's so we are like 45 minutes into this one.

00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:18.000
 Yeah. We should talk about comics.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:26.880
 We need to talk about like, uh, uh, do you want to talk about some of your favorite moments or things

00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:29.840
 that you remembered out of the episode this morning?

00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:36.880
 So my really favorite moment that I thought was like absolutely mind-blowing. It's something that I posted

00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:45.360
 this morning on LinkedIn. Let me guess. Let me guess. Pedals. Pedals. Yes. Pedals. So yeah, she was like,

00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:51.040
 in case if you, you know, if you haven't listened to this episode, um, so Steph was talking about how

00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:58.320
 to do transcription of audio. So we assumed that, uh, when, then when audio is transcribed for a transcript

00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:03.040
 to be published, they will use some tool like Descript or there's plenty of software, I guess,

00:42:03.040 --> 00:42:09.040
 for transcription of, of audio in the text, and then they edit that. But apparently what they do is

00:42:09.040 --> 00:42:14.160
 actually faster for them to just listen to the audio and type it out. Right. Like in real time.

00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:19.680
 Uh, but you have to like go back, you know, like repeat certain parts because you know, you don't

00:42:19.680 --> 00:42:25.520
 necessarily, I don't think it's humanly possible to like type as transcribe one hour, one hour,

00:42:25.520 --> 00:42:34.640
 of audio like in real time without making mistakes. One of the persons on Steph's team connected pedals to

00:42:34.640 --> 00:42:41.680
 her computer. Well, I assume it's, I assume it's her. Her or they, yeah. Yeah. So they connected pedals

00:42:41.680 --> 00:42:50.640
 and, and if, uh, they, you know, tap on that pedal, it goes like 30 seconds back. Right. And like,

00:42:50.640 --> 00:42:56.800
 like rewinds 30 seconds back and like repeats that section that, uh, they want to listen to. And,

00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:04.000
 um, what I found so funny about, well, not funny, like, I don't know, exciting about that is like,

00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:08.960
 it's not keyboard. It's not keyboard shortcuts because actually, yeah, if you think about it,

00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:14.720
 the person who does the transcription, their hands are on the keyboard in the typing position. They want

00:43:14.720 --> 00:43:19.120
 to type text. You don't necessarily want to like distract yourself, like pressing the command key

00:43:19.120 --> 00:43:25.440
 and some, something else. You want to be able to use your other limb. Yeah. They're like sitting idle.

00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:30.160
 Yeah. When, when, when Steph was talking about that, uh, I actually thought it was cool. But now

00:43:30.160 --> 00:43:37.360
 that I put my hands on the keyboard, I realized that it's actually functionally more convenient.

00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:42.880
 Oh yeah. Like I have been thinking about that and I knew you would bring this up. And this was one of

00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:51.280
 my favorite moments too. Um, but I thought, so, so, uh, when you're doing deep work, right? When I'm

00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:56.480
 doing deep work, like I'm programming something or writing something, um, like deep, fake work,

00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:58.000
 deep, fake work.

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:11.280
 Okay. Okay. So when I'm doing like programming or writing something, I almost always have music, uh,

00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:17.360
 playing. Right. And it's almost kind of like an ambient noise kind of music that I don't really pay

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:23.520
 attention to the music, but it helps me focus. Uh, sometimes the music is like very jarring.

00:44:23.520 --> 00:44:29.040
 Either I'm too familiar with it or it doesn't jive with me at all. And I feel like I skip it or go back.

00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:33.680
 I really love that play it again, even without knowing what was playing. Right. And I think for

00:44:33.680 --> 00:44:40.560
 these kinds of things, it's so jarring to have to like go out of the thing that you're in the

00:44:40.560 --> 00:44:46.640
 programming editor or the word document or whatever you're writing in and go into like YouTube music

00:44:46.640 --> 00:44:52.880
 or Spotify or whatever the heck you use, click there. And I, I have actually like a system of

00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:59.760
 scripts that uses like Alfred that does this for me, like hotkeys built. Right. But even that,

00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:06.560
 I, I feel like I'm using my hands while I'm already typing and it would be so cool to have like a set

00:45:06.560 --> 00:45:14.400
 of paddles below me, uh, with my feet that is sitting or sitting idle feet are kind of like they're,

00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:21.760
 they're idle. It would be so cool to actually do those auxiliary things with your feet that don't really,

00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:28.160
 I don't care about that as much. And I wonder if there are devices like that, that you could just

00:45:28.160 --> 00:45:36.160
 connect to your computer. Yeah. I'm really curious if it's something like, you know, stock or, uh, you

00:45:36.160 --> 00:45:41.840
 know, they built something using, you know, other kind of parts. Yeah. We should, we should actually

00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:46.720
 research that and see what's there, but I'm going to take you on a tangent right now. Yes. Because

00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:53.120
 like speaking about pedals, as a guitar player, you know, I have pedals and pedals are basically like

00:45:53.120 --> 00:45:58.000
 effects. So, so we were just talking about the effects chain. So when you play a musical instrument,

00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:03.520
 uh, especially the guitar, the electric guitar, so between your guitar and your amplifier that plays

00:46:03.520 --> 00:46:09.040
 the sound, usually there is a set of effects that you put in there, like a distortion effect that makes

00:46:09.040 --> 00:46:14.320
 your like guitar scream, you know, uh, or like, or like the reverb, you know, in, in audio, we want to

00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:19.760
 remove, uh, any, uh, reverberation, any echo, but when you play the guitar, you want, you want to add

00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:24.000
 some reverb. So it sounds more kind of more lively. So then you have those little pedals that, uh,

00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:29.440
 you put, uh, in your effects chain. Here's where I'm going with this. Um, so I have this, um,

00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:38.640
 effects processor, which has like 50 knobs and like four pedals and stuff, and it can do like 300

00:46:38.640 --> 00:46:45.120
 different things. Okay. Uh, like they, they, they sound decent. Like it's not, it's not bad. It's a

00:46:45.120 --> 00:46:52.720
 boss M E 100. I think that's what it's called. It's a host cost like $300 or so. And then I have this

00:46:52.720 --> 00:47:01.280
 amplifier that I used in our bonus episode that can do just one thing. It can play like clean guitar

00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:07.360
 sound, uh, with like no effects. It costs 750 bucks. Like the point I want to make here,

00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:13.200
 like when I got this amplifier, I'm like, Oh my God, this is so good. Like I know what I paid 750

00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:20.560
 bucks for. Right. Um, so there's this concept of like, I guess, Swiss army knife tools and single

00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:26.720
 purpose tools. Yeah. So this amplifier is a single purpose thing that can do just one thing like best

00:47:26.720 --> 00:47:31.520
 in class. Right. Right. And there are the Swiss army knives, uh, that, uh, you know, it's those knives

00:47:31.520 --> 00:47:36.640
 with like a bunch of blades, like none of these blades are good enough for anything except for like

00:47:36.640 --> 00:47:41.920
 little things you want to do. Basically like it, it, this army knife is good at saving space, but it's

00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:47.600
 not really saving you money maybe, but it's not good at like anything. It's convenience over like

00:47:47.600 --> 00:47:53.040
 sophisticated. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, and so the other moment, uh, that was kind of memorable

00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:59.760
 for me in the, um, in the episode, uh, I asked Steph about Descript. I don't know why I keep coming

00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:05.440
 back to Descript. Oh, this was in mine too. Yeah. Because I, I have, I have a bit, I guess I have

00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:10.560
 a bit of a, I love Descript. Affection. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I have a lot of affection for Descript.

00:48:10.560 --> 00:48:16.240
 At the same time, I can't quite figure out why I can't do everything in Descript. And I think

00:48:16.240 --> 00:48:22.080
 now I'm starting to get it. I think Descript tries to be a Swiss army knife. Uh, so Descript is a tool

00:48:22.080 --> 00:48:26.880
 where it can transcribe the text for you. You can, uh, like edit the text. And when you edit

00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:32.880
 the text, it edits the audio, but then it also has all of the effects chain. Uh, so in theory,

00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:39.840
 you can produce your entire episode using just Descript alone. But what Descript is really good

00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.080
 at is actually moving text around. So you move text around and it moves audio around. Actually,

00:48:44.080 --> 00:48:48.720
 I would say I would give it four stars because it's sometimes doesn't do a great job, but it does

00:48:48.720 --> 00:48:54.080
 a decent enough job with moving text around. It saves you a lot of time. But when it comes to like,

00:48:54.080 --> 00:49:00.720
 if you want to add music, maybe it's easy, I don't know, but like I tried to learn it. Uh, and at some

00:49:00.720 --> 00:49:05.520
 point I just gave up. I went back to my digital audio workstation. Right. And did what I, and did what I

00:49:05.520 --> 00:49:11.520
 knew how to do. So they kind of, I think they changed the paradigm a little bit. And, uh, I don't know,

00:49:11.520 --> 00:49:16.160
 I don't know. So the thing is for me, Descript is like a bit of a Swiss army knife

00:49:16.160 --> 00:49:21.840
 that has one blade that's, that's sort of pretty good, but then all of the other blades, I'm like,

00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:26.880
 yeah, I don't know if I, if I really want to use them. I would rather instead of using, let's say,

00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:34.000
 built-in compressor in, uh, in Descript. Yeah. Yeah. I would rather choose one of the hundreds of

00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:40.400
 compressor VST plugins that I can use with, with, uh, you know, in Reaper or Pro Tools. Right.

00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:47.920
 So it's like those digital audio workstation and, uh, Steph is using Logic. I'm using Reaper.

00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:53.120
 Lots of people use Pro Tools. By the way, I checked prices. Pro Tools cost 200 bucks a year.

00:49:53.120 --> 00:50:00.240
 Logic costs 200 bucks just as a one-off cost. Okay. And, um, Reaper that I use costs 60 bucks

00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:05.920
 as a one-off cost for, uh, like home lessons, uh, which, which is very affordable. And the most of

00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:12.560
 those plugins are free. So they actually built as platforms. So basically Reaper itself or Logic or

00:50:12.560 --> 00:50:18.320
 Pro Tools, they do some basic things very well. They, you know, you can cut the audio, you can move

00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:23.920
 things around, uh, they, they, they orchestrate your workflow, but then they rely on those thousands of,

00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:30.080
 uh, software developers to create, uh, those plugins, like, like, like,

00:50:30.080 --> 00:50:35.760
 you know, Logic or Pro Tools, they can never be good at, uh, like building the best compressor

00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:40.800
 and the best deep breath and the best DS and the best, and all, and all of that. Instead,

00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:46.160
 they built the great platform that other developers can plug into. So it's like an open ecosystem of

00:50:46.160 --> 00:50:52.000
 sorts, whereas Descript is like a closed tool, more likely Apple approach. And I think they will get

00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:56.960
 there, but it will probably take maybe another year or two or three. I don't know. I'm actually looking

00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:02.640
 forward to them. You know, I guess I keep, uh, defending Descript even though I don't myself

00:51:02.640 --> 00:51:09.280
 use it as much because we want Andrew Mason in our podcast. Yeah. At this point, I think you'll get

00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:14.560
 angry after listing all of our, yeah, anyway. Yeah. Andrew Mason or like anybody in the marketing

00:51:14.560 --> 00:51:19.440
 department of Descript, if you're listening to this, uh, yeah. Yeah. We love Descript. Yeah. Let's,

00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.560
 let's, let's talk, let's talk about it. We will be nice. You know, it is, I'll be nice.

00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:31.040
 They got a 50 million funding, I think, series A. So like you said, I, I do think they'll get better

00:51:31.040 --> 00:51:38.000
 too. To me, it just sounds like right now it's not sophisticated enough for like professionals to use.

00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:44.000
 Yeah. Um, and maybe anything other than that transcribe and moving words around part,

00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:48.000
 the rest of the things are probably not like professional ready. That's why,

00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:54.720
 because we talked to two sound engineer people and both of them, like we're not impressed with that at

00:51:54.720 --> 00:52:00.160
 all. Yeah. But both of them actually said that they still use it. Yes. One of them said they use it for,

00:52:00.160 --> 00:52:06.160
 like communication with clients because it's easy to leave comments and also it's easy to move text

00:52:06.160 --> 00:52:14.080
 around. Yeah. And I think Steph said that they use it for transcriptions. They do a raw transcribe,

00:52:14.080 --> 00:52:20.000
 but they also manually transcribe the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it's like a helper

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:23.920
 tool as opposed to the main tool. Yeah. And actually maybe, maybe this is where like,

00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:32.560
 like Andrew, I'm giving you an idea, uh, just like let, you know, other developers, I guess, support VST

00:52:32.560 --> 00:52:39.280
 plugins in, in there and make it look more like a dog or actually what I guess I would really appreciate.

00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:44.320
 And that's what this other sound engineer said, uh, the one that's not Steph, um,

00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:52.000
 Jace. Jace. Yes. Or Brian. I forgot. Owen. Yeah. If you don't know what we are talking about,

00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:59.200
 listen to episode four. So anyway, so yeah, we talked to Jason and, um, he said that it would

00:52:59.200 --> 00:53:04.080
 be really cool to have the transcription in Pro Tools. So basically it's almost like,

00:53:04.080 --> 00:53:11.200
 give me the, give me the technological capabilities of this script, but let me use them in another

00:53:11.200 --> 00:53:17.200
 user interface. Right. So, so this could be an actually an API that provides, yeah, that provides

00:53:17.200 --> 00:53:25.120
 those things like as a plugin, which obviously will not look as sexy, but I would definitely be using it

00:53:25.120 --> 00:53:30.000
 a lot more if it actually did what, uh, what we just said. Right. Okay. We got to start, I think,

00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:38.560
 winding down. We're about an hour. Yeah. It's almost midnight here. Yes. I have, um, I, I,

00:53:38.560 --> 00:53:45.040
 I want to bring up one. So I had these two, two, uh, the pedal and the script, the two other,

00:53:45.040 --> 00:53:54.800
 I'll quickly mention them. One was not really tied to Steph, uh, or edit audio, but they have original

00:53:54.800 --> 00:54:03.440
 podcasts and one of their podcasts is called well adjusting. And I listened to an episode of it that

00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:09.760
 I immediately shared with Ilya. Right. It's, it's the promotion mentality and culture that you see at

00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:16.640
 pretty much any corporate. Right. And I love that episode because they talked to a person who kind of

00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:24.080
 did not want to get promoted. She was very happy at her job, but she was facing his job as an assistant,

00:54:24.080 --> 00:54:31.120
 as an executive assistant. Yes. Yeah. But she was implicitly as well as explicitly pressured to like

00:54:31.120 --> 00:54:39.120
 from get promoted, work towards being an SVP someday and whatnot. Right. And it's, it's her story as well

00:54:39.120 --> 00:54:44.800
 as a lot of like, I think, takeaways, uh, about the culture and all that, and how you're perceived to be

00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:51.440
 like, if you don't want to get promoted, how you're perceived to be lazy. Uh, whereas in fact,

00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:55.920
 you really enjoy your job, but you don't want to get promoted because you don't want to change your job.

00:54:55.920 --> 00:55:03.920
 So yeah. Actually, I remember when I first started at Amazon, uh, I was in an internship back in 2014,

00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:10.320
 I think. Uh, so there was like a panel of people talking to us about career. So there was this guy who

00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:17.360
 had been at Amazon for a few years and he said that I just want to keep doing my job for as long as like,

00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:24.880
 I'm allowed to. Yeah. Because I want to like go deep and all that. And I was looking at it there.

00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:31.600
 Like I was like, I was just over 30, I guess at the time. And I'm like, not ambitious enough.

00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:37.200
 Like what are you talking about? Like you got to like do different things and like grow and like

00:55:37.200 --> 00:55:43.520
 get the promotion and all that. Uh, now in that respect, I'm like people should just do what they

00:55:43.520 --> 00:55:49.040
 want to do. Yeah. And especially I think the promotion thing, I listened for the first few

00:55:49.040 --> 00:55:54.800
 minutes of that episode. Yeah. Where I really like how she was saying that she told her boss that she

00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:59.440
 doesn't want to get the promotion. Like she just find where she is. Yeah. She finds meaning like

00:55:59.440 --> 00:56:06.160
 doing other things in life, like some art and stuff. And it, it would seem to land with her boss,

00:56:06.160 --> 00:56:11.440
 but then he would like come back like a week later and like start the same thing all over.

00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:15.040
 Like you're, you're really good at your job. Let's start thinking about your next step.

00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:20.560
 Exactly. Right. So, but I think the important thing she mentioned there is that she used to have a boss

00:56:20.560 --> 00:56:28.240
 for many years that she really liked and who was really like getting her, but then the boss changed

00:56:28.240 --> 00:56:34.080
 and that's when all of that began. So it's like, you know, sometimes you have people you really connect

00:56:34.080 --> 00:56:40.080
 with and then, uh, yeah, like as a manager and you don't feel like they're your manager. Right. But then

00:56:40.080 --> 00:56:45.440
 somebody else comes in and, and you're like, yeah, their life becomes miserable. Yeah.

00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:50.960
 I'm, I'm curious if your experience is similar to mine and as well as listeners, right? Like whoever

00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:56.480
 is listening still. Thank you for listening, by the way. You can, you can respond to Arnab's

00:56:56.480 --> 00:57:03.920
 question by maybe tagging him in Twitter or, or like direct message. Twitter, Mastodon, email.

00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:08.720
 Yeah. You'll find all our contacts. Or my Instagram. Yep. So yeah. Whoever you like more,

00:57:08.720 --> 00:57:12.400
 let's just like write to him and I, or if you like both of us, write it, write it,

00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:20.000
 hello@metacastpodcast.com and both of us will get it. Say hello. So the one thing that I always felt

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:24.880
 there were a lot of, over my 12 years at Amazon, there were a lot of career talks that I went to

00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:33.760
 and I gave some too, right? There was an almost implicit association of career with promotions and

00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:43.360
 very few people I think got it, uh, that it's not the same thing. And I wonder if your kind of experience

00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:49.040
 was similar, uh, as well as listeners. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's also this misperception that

00:57:49.040 --> 00:57:55.680
 like managing people or managing more people means promotion. Right. Um, I think what I learned, uh,

00:57:55.680 --> 00:58:01.280
 specifically working at Amazon is that actually there is a different career track where you can continue

00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:07.840
 being, you know, craftsman, uh, like being a software engineer or designer or a product manager where you

00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:13.120
 actually don't have people reporting to you, but you still, you still get promoted to the next level.

00:58:13.120 --> 00:58:20.320
 And, um, you know, you have more responsibilities and stuff, uh, you get paid more. But I think where

00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:29.280
 this inevitably leads is you do less and less of your craft and more and more of direct or in or

00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:36.400
 indirect people management. Yes. Right. Because like you start to coach people, you like don't do the

00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:42.080
 work, but you negotiate that two teams run in the same direction and they try to run in different

00:58:42.080 --> 00:58:46.640
 directions because of there are certain personalities on those teams who like drive them a certain way.

00:58:46.640 --> 00:58:52.080
 Or there was like somebody toxic on the team and you, as you be like maybe the most senior person,

00:58:52.080 --> 00:58:59.360
 you like help coach them. And it just becomes like, just for me, at least like when I left Amazon,

00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:06.080
 I was a principal, like, like, just like you when you left Amazon. Um, I remember like, I'll say this

00:59:06.080 --> 00:59:13.680
 on the record, I guess I don't care. So it was August 2019, I believe. Uh, we were in the meeting room

00:59:13.680 --> 00:59:19.360
 with like, actually you weren't there. I guess you weren't the principal yet. Uh, so, uh, yeah, we were

00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:23.360
 sitting there with like 20 or so people like talking about the strategy for next year and all that for

00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:30.880
 that for two days, like eight hours in a day. Right. And I was just bored out of my mind because like,

00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:35.840
 you know, you, you and I were, we were working on specific like chat bot thing, but the rest of the

00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:41.680
 org organization where we worked, it was responsible for a lot of other things. And that's those things,

00:59:41.680 --> 00:59:47.120
 they didn't interest me at all. Right. Like, like zero, I had zero interest in them. So basically

00:59:47.120 --> 00:59:53.120
 like thinking about those things were draining for me. Right. But as a principal, you were expected to

00:59:53.120 --> 00:59:58.960
 be interested in all of that and show initiative and influence in all of them. I was promoted two

00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:04.000
 months before that. Right. To, to, to principal. And then all of a sudden now I have all these

01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:08.160
 expectations and I'm like, okay, so now I'm principal. Now I have to do all these things.

01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:13.120
 And I was just bored out of my mind. I was literally falling asleep. I was like struggling

01:00:13.120 --> 01:00:18.160
 to keep my eyes open. You know, obviously, you know, I didn't contribute much. I probably was a

01:00:18.160 --> 01:00:24.560
 liability for that group as opposed to like an asset. And, you know, one of the other principals who

01:00:24.560 --> 01:00:29.920
 got promoted a couple of years before us, you know, both of us know him. He came to me afterwards

01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:37.520
 and he said that, I mean, we are good friends. And he said like, dude, like you have to like up your

01:00:37.520 --> 01:00:42.880
 game. Like now your principal, like you have to be engaged in this stuff. And that was the beginning

01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:51.440
 of the end for me. Cause I'm like, yeah, that's, it's just not what I wanted. It's not. I, yeah.

01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:56.960
 And I remember like, I also had this thing where, you know, that, uh, the chat bot that we were working

01:00:56.960 --> 01:01:02.880
 on, you know, we were the kind of the founders of, of that whole product. And so I was there for like

01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:08.720
 day zero, you were there, I guess from day 0.5. Yeah. Uh, just like, yeah. Yeah. I guess you joined

01:01:08.720 --> 01:01:15.360
 before the first line of code was written. Yeah. So, and, um, I felt that sense of obligation to

01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:23.280
 my team, uh, including you that, you know, that I can't just like quit. Yeah. You know, like I have

01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:27.280
 to like keep pushing these because like, that's what we started. And I remember like, I was talking

01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:31.600
 to a few people and I was saying, just like, I don't know what to do because I just can't do it

01:01:31.600 --> 01:01:37.440
 anymore. Right. And, um, yeah, it was surprising how they were like, yeah, like just do what's best

01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:43.120
 for you. And yeah. Yeah. Eventually I left. Yeah. But it also kind of shows that part of the corporate

01:01:43.120 --> 01:01:51.440
 world where everybody's replaceable. Yeah. I, I had a long time. Like I, I talked maybe like

01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:55.920
 at least four months, maybe six months before I left that, Hey, I'm going to leave, let's figure

01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:01.120
 it out and all that. And I also felt being like one of the first people in that area. Right. And

01:02:01.120 --> 01:02:08.160
 there's like 60 people or so working in that area now. So I felt kind of like almost guilt, uh,

01:02:08.160 --> 01:02:14.560
 leaving that space, but I think what I felt. Yeah. Yeah. But eventually I think you're right. Like

01:02:14.560 --> 01:02:20.240
 nobody's, everything goes on, right? Like the product that I've been working on last two years,

01:02:20.240 --> 01:02:27.040
 that's like about to launch, I think soon. So yeah, I think there will definitely be things that are

01:02:27.040 --> 01:02:32.880
 missed. And I know that we missed a lot of things right after you left. We were like, oh, if Ilya was

01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:36.560
 here, he would have known what to do here or there. And I think those things will come,

01:02:36.560 --> 01:02:44.160
 but organizations are built in a way to minimize the effect of like a single person. So I think it'll

01:02:44.160 --> 01:02:50.880
 go well. They box you in. So you are like a cog, right? Like more replaceable. And then like those

01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:57.120
 promotions, you just get the bigger box. In organizations, essentially what ends up

01:02:57.120 --> 01:03:05.280
 happening, this is like my experience. So only one data point is you get promoted and promoted

01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:14.240
 until a point where you are no longer doing what you enjoy. And either you adjust to that and you're

01:03:14.240 --> 01:03:17.760
 okay with that, or you figure out, okay, this is not for me anymore.

01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:22.240
 And that's actually the Peter's principle, which is the foundation for the Dilbert's principle,

01:03:22.240 --> 01:03:28.240
 which says that everybody gets promoted to their level of incompetence.

01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:35.600
 Basically, you get promoted to the point where you no longer kind of enjoy or like a good at what you're

01:03:35.600 --> 01:03:41.200
 expected to do. So you don't get promoted further. So you always get like promoted out of the thing

01:03:41.200 --> 01:03:43.840
 that you do well until you don't do it well anymore.

01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:50.720
 Yeah. And then I think Dilbert's principle. I forgot. Actually, let me quickly look it up.

01:03:50.720 --> 01:03:58.320
 Okay. So Dilbert's principle says that people get consistently promoted to management. Incompetent

01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:04.160
 people get promoted to the management. So they kind of get out of the production workflow.

01:04:04.160 --> 01:04:09.840
 Right. Contributor. Yeah. Yeah. So I forgot how exactly it ties to Peter's principle because on the

01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:14.160
 surface, it doesn't seem like they're related. But I remember reading the book by Scott Adams,

01:04:14.160 --> 01:04:19.760
 the Dilbert principle, where it actually goes into detail of that. So yeah. But you said you had two

01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:21.040
 things you want to talk about.

01:04:21.040 --> 01:04:27.600
 Well, the other one, okay, let's do like 30 seconds on it because I have to go, was I really,

01:04:27.600 --> 01:04:33.280
 so you remember I asked her about you lived and worked in Yukon because I was fascinated by it,

01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:38.320
 right? I have always wanted to go to Yukon. It's almost seems like in the old days,

01:04:38.320 --> 01:04:40.320
 it was the ultimate frontier, right?

01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:45.200
 And I always confuse Yukon and Yucatan. So Yukon is like in the North Pole almost.

01:04:45.200 --> 01:04:53.200
 Almost. Almost. Yeah. It's kind of like east of Alaska, right? And north of BC and Yucatan.

01:04:53.200 --> 01:04:54.080
 This is like almost Russia.

01:04:54.080 --> 01:04:58.000
 Yeah. Well, Russia is west of Alaska.

01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:01.520
 Oh, west. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I keep confusing west and east.

01:05:01.520 --> 01:05:05.680
 Right. Cool. And Yucatan is in Mexico, but yeah.

01:05:05.680 --> 01:05:11.760
 Right. That's where that thing fell that killed all the dinosaurs.

01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:18.480
 All the dinosaurs. Yes. The place that she lived, I looked it up on Google maps later on. She said she

01:05:18.480 --> 01:05:24.320
 really enjoyed it, right? In the summers and all. It's a really tiny, and this is almost like the

01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:34.480
 furthest away northwestern town in Yukon. So Yukon is already pretty isolated and it's a huge province.

01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:40.560
 And this is like the northwest corner of Yukon. So I was really fascinated by that because I want to go

01:05:40.560 --> 01:05:44.080
 there one day and like kind of see how life is and all that.

01:05:44.080 --> 01:05:49.040
 So it's like if you get appendicitis, well, you're doomed because like they would have to

01:05:49.040 --> 01:05:57.120
 evacuate with the jet. Probably. But this being like North America, I think they would figure out

01:05:57.120 --> 01:06:02.480
 how to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I was really, my son has one of those national geographic

01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:08.240
 books with like, you know, weird stuff. Oh, actually, no, that was a book about national parks in the US.

01:06:08.240 --> 01:06:14.480
 Yeah. So apparently there is a national park in Alaska. That's almost like the size of Texas or

01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:21.200
 something. It's like gigantic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there are no roads there. It's basically like

01:06:21.200 --> 01:06:27.120
 like you can only enter that park by by feet. And something happens, essentially, like you get eaten

01:06:27.120 --> 01:06:30.720
 by wildlife. That's what happens like there.

01:06:30.720 --> 01:06:35.600
 Yeah. So there's a really good book if you're interested in this. There's a guy, it's a true story.

01:06:35.600 --> 01:06:44.240
 He went into the wild. Yes. The wild. Chris McCandless. I really enjoyed that book.

01:06:44.240 --> 01:06:49.680
 There's also a movie where this guy like he lives in this like trailer or something.

01:06:49.680 --> 01:06:57.680
 Yeah. And then and then, yeah, we won't spoil, but he eventually gets like bad things happen.

01:06:57.680 --> 01:07:05.440
 Yes. But it's a true story. And it became so famous that the bus, the school bus that he lived in

01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:12.160
 inside that national park became like a tourist spot. And they eventually had to remove the bus

01:07:12.160 --> 01:07:18.320
 from there because a lot of people were going just to see the bus. Oh, OK. Anyway, it's a good

01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:24.400
 for the wrong reasons. Yeah. Good movie, too. But again, just like every other movie adaptation,

01:07:24.400 --> 01:07:30.080
 it loses a lot of things that's in the book. So, yeah. Yeah, I think this is a good way to end this

01:07:30.080 --> 01:07:37.520
 this episode, because in the next episode that we record before this episode, I guess, long story

01:07:37.520 --> 01:07:43.440
 short, the next episode will be a bonus episode where we talk about movies and the adaptations of books

01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:49.920
 to movies. Don't miss that in a few days. And so, Arna, where can people find us?

01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:56.960
 We have a website, metacastpodcast.com. That's where you'll find all the links, but let's call

01:07:56.960 --> 01:08:03.440
 them out, too. So there's a newsletter in there, newsletter.metacastpodcast.com. And then you and

01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:10.480
 I both have our Twitters and Instagrams. You just started your podcast hacks, not breakfast product

01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:21.840
 hacks. Breakfast hacks. Yes. And I'm generally OR90B everywhere in the socials. That's a cool way of

01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:28.400
 saying or not. Or at least I like to pretend so. Which for me, immortals means just scroll to the

01:08:28.400 --> 01:08:33.520
 link in the show notes and click on it. Yes. Don't try to spell it. Because I can never spell it. Yes.

01:08:34.320 --> 01:08:41.200
 I thought you do this so that people can find you. No, I like it. And also because there's a really

01:08:41.200 --> 01:08:47.920
 famous or infamous person called Arna from the same place that I'm in. And they tend to take up

01:08:47.920 --> 01:08:54.320
 all the socials before I do, except GitHub. I got that one. Cool. Yeah. Please subscribe. Give us

01:08:54.320 --> 01:09:00.640
 five stars. If you haven't, if you already have, ask somebody else to give us five stars. So it keeps

01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:02.240
 multiplying. Yeah.

01:09:02.240 --> 01:09:09.040
 Because it helps us, you know, get more popular and it bolsters our ego, you know, and all this stuff.

01:09:09.040 --> 01:09:15.600
 But it also gives us, I guess. But I think more importantly, when somebody searches for Metacast

01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:22.240
 in Apple or other app, we don't show up as like the sixth or seventh one in there. We show up as the

01:09:22.240 --> 01:09:28.160
 first or second in there. Yeah, exactly. And also, I guess, don't hesitate to write to us. Yes.

01:09:28.160 --> 01:09:35.680
 We would love to chat and, you know, discuss topics and all. Hello@metacast.com.

01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:45.360
 Hello@metacastpodcast.com. Yeah. Actually, I wanted to buy metacast.com. Yeah. And the price I was

01:09:45.360 --> 01:09:50.400
 called it was 20,000 bucks. Yeah. And I offered them like, okay, so like, would you go for a thousand

01:09:50.400 --> 01:09:56.160
 bucks? I think they said something like they could give me like a 10% discount or something. Right.

01:09:56.160 --> 01:10:01.040
 So we'll just wait till like our value exceeds so much that they quote us a million dollars.

01:10:01.040 --> 01:10:07.840
 Right. Yeah. Maybe we should add like, buy me a coffee link. And then once our listenership goes to

01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:13.440
 like the millions, we can easily pay 20,000 bucks. Yes. So yeah. But for that, you have to give us the

01:10:13.440 --> 01:10:20.400
 five-star review so that the, the listenership keeps growing. Right. All right. It was an awesome

01:10:20.400 --> 01:10:27.280
 episode. Thank you, Ilya. Thank you for listening, listeners. And good night, good day, wherever you

01:10:27.280 --> 01:10:34.800
 are. And good night, extreme good night, almost good morning to India.