WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.040 Let me ask you, so some podcasts do a copypasta intro and outro. 00:00:08.040 --> 00:00:09.600 What do you think about that? 00:00:09.600 --> 00:00:11.140 Lazy fuckers. 00:00:11.140 --> 00:00:15.320 Mark is explicit. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:16.380 Mark is explicit, yeah. 00:00:24.380 --> 00:00:31.020 Hello, and welcome to Metacast, and I'm Ilya Bestelov, and with me is my co-host, Arnab. 00:00:31.020 --> 00:00:32.320 Hello, hello. 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:34.900 It's awesome that you introduced me, Ilya. 00:00:34.900 --> 00:00:37.280 Yeah, I mean, how could I? 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:38.540 It's tit for that, right? 00:00:38.540 --> 00:00:41.660 You did it two previous times, and I'm like, okay, so I have to do it now. 00:00:41.660 --> 00:00:46.420 So let me, like, immediately talk about this. 00:00:46.420 --> 00:00:49.660 This was one of the things I was going to talk about our previous episode. 00:00:49.660 --> 00:00:51.180 I did the intro. 00:00:51.180 --> 00:00:53.140 We kind of switch up. 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:56.560 Sometimes you do the intros, sometimes I do it, and I did it. 00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:02.560 So I did the intro for episode 20 last week, which was with Justin Jackson of Transistor FM, 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:07.620 and I was very conscious because the last few episodes, we've been talking about, like, 00:01:07.620 --> 00:01:10.000 how we forget to introduce the other host. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:15.000 So this time, I don't know if you noticed it or not, but go back and listen to it, Ilya, 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:15.820 and listener. 00:01:15.820 --> 00:01:22.960 I was very careful to specifically mention you and the guest, but I forgot to mention my name. 00:01:23.180 --> 00:01:28.500 So that's like when you overthink things. 00:01:28.500 --> 00:01:29.060 Yeah. 00:01:29.060 --> 00:01:32.860 When you get, like, fixated on one thing, I think it becomes, like, tunnel vision. 00:01:32.860 --> 00:01:34.680 So it's like, I shouldn't forget to say Ilya's name. 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:35.960 I shouldn't forget to say Ilya's name, right? 00:01:35.960 --> 00:01:38.120 And then, yeah, you forget everything else. 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:41.680 I just said I, but I didn't say my name. 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:42.320 So, yeah. 00:01:42.320 --> 00:01:42.600 Yeah. 00:01:43.260 --> 00:01:44.160 Let me ask you. 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:48.960 So some podcasts do a copypasta intro and outro. 00:01:48.960 --> 00:01:52.220 Like, some of the popular podcasts that I listen to, they do it. 00:01:52.220 --> 00:01:53.700 What do you think about that? 00:01:53.700 --> 00:01:55.220 Lazy fuckers. 00:01:55.220 --> 00:01:59.900 Mark is explicit. 00:01:59.900 --> 00:02:00.580 Mark is explicit. 00:02:00.580 --> 00:02:01.000 Yeah. 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:08.900 Yeah, so I did read this as, like, a recommendation in one of the articles, or maybe I heard somebody 00:02:08.900 --> 00:02:11.000 say this because it, like, helps you save time. 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:16.680 I think, though, that it starts to get old very quick if you hear exactly the same intro. 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:18.480 So people just start skipping through the intro. 00:02:18.820 --> 00:02:23.780 My opinion is that better shows, they do the intro different every time. 00:02:23.780 --> 00:02:25.760 I mean, they record it every time. 00:02:25.760 --> 00:02:29.160 And then they may say things that they don't say otherwise. 00:02:29.160 --> 00:02:31.060 So actually, it's also enjoyable to listen. 00:02:31.060 --> 00:02:32.100 It's part of the experience. 00:02:32.100 --> 00:02:36.100 Because I think when you start to insert free, canned things, worst case scenario is that, 00:02:36.100 --> 00:02:39.900 let's say you have hoarse voice today, but in the intro, you have normal voice. 00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:41.460 How is that transition going to sound? 00:02:41.460 --> 00:02:46.120 The ones that I listen to, they make it explicit that this is the intro. 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:48.060 Then they play some music or something. 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:50.520 Then they say, okay, today we have blah, blah, blah. 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:51.760 But yeah, I agree. 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:55.040 Like, I feel like I skipped through it too now. 00:02:55.040 --> 00:02:57.880 I just know, like, okay, first 30 seconds are that. 00:02:57.880 --> 00:03:00.220 So I'm just going to skip through it after a few episodes. 00:03:00.220 --> 00:03:01.920 Yeah, like Tim Ferriss, for example, right? 00:03:01.920 --> 00:03:06.360 So he has this music playing and then some voice in the background says, like, whatever, 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:10.020 Tim Ferriss, excellence, improvement, whatever it says there, right? 00:03:10.020 --> 00:03:12.480 And it plays for, like, 20, 30 seconds. 00:03:12.480 --> 00:03:13.460 I just skip it. 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:18.260 I feel like the way we do our podcasts, I copied this from the post-life podcast, 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:19.560 because theirs was the best. 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:21.280 Now ours is second best. 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:25.360 I really like that idea where the first thing you hear is actually somebody is talking. 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:29.240 And then some quiet music plays underneath that. 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:33.740 And when they stop talking, and then the music starts to play, like, full-blown volume just 00:03:33.740 --> 00:03:36.240 for a few seconds, and then that music starts to fade out. 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.260 And then you, like, people come in and say, like, hello, this is Metacast, whatever. 00:03:40.260 --> 00:03:45.020 If you listen to any old episodes of PostLite, because I haven't listened to any of the new ones, 00:03:45.020 --> 00:03:49.100 but, like, any episode before, I'll say 300, they all start the same way. 00:03:49.100 --> 00:03:50.840 I just don't know how the new ones are. 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:53.320 I also haven't listened recently. 00:03:53.320 --> 00:03:55.660 I used to also listen to the first, yeah. 00:03:55.660 --> 00:03:57.740 But here's the thing, actually, about podcasts, right? 00:03:57.820 --> 00:04:00.780 So there's a, I guess we could say it's a corporate podcast. 00:04:00.780 --> 00:04:03.120 So they run an agency called PostLite. 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:04.900 Two guys, Paul Ford and Rich, the ID. 00:04:04.900 --> 00:04:07.580 They run a digital agency out of New York. 00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:10.760 And they use this podcast as the promotion tool, marketing tool. 00:04:10.760 --> 00:04:12.480 Great podcast, really loved it. 00:04:12.480 --> 00:04:17.320 I think at some point last year, both of them stepped down from operating positions. 00:04:17.320 --> 00:04:20.360 I think Rich was the CEO and Paul was the president or something. 00:04:20.540 --> 00:04:23.420 I think now they're just co-founders and two other people. 00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:25.740 I think their name is Gina and Chris, I believe. 00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:28.540 So they took the founder's positions as a CEO and president. 00:04:28.540 --> 00:04:30.180 And they also do the podcast now. 00:04:30.180 --> 00:04:35.980 But the reason I listened to the podcast was because I like these two particular people, Paul and Rich. 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:37.560 I mean, Gina and Chris, they're great too. 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:39.040 But the vibe is completely different. 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:42.960 This happened to me recently in a Formula One podcast. 00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:43.760 I'm trying to remember. 00:04:43.760 --> 00:04:46.680 Oh, it's called WTF1 Podcast. 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:48.800 And WTF1 is a big brand. 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:50.980 These two people grew the brand. 00:04:50.980 --> 00:04:53.820 And I don't remember exactly what happened. 00:04:53.820 --> 00:04:56.580 But they used to make the podcast. 00:04:56.580 --> 00:04:58.140 Well, there were three people, actually. 00:04:58.140 --> 00:05:00.120 Two guys and a girl. 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.120 And it was a hilarious, fun Formula One podcast. 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:09.260 I think recently, like last year, they switched to another four or five people. 00:05:09.260 --> 00:05:12.720 And again, see, this is where I tried it for one episode. 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:18.300 It was so different from the previous ones that I was like, OK, it's not the same anymore. 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.660 It probably is still great, but it's a different podcast. 00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:23.040 To be clear, it's not worse. 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:23.920 It's just different. 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:25.120 It's very different. 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:28.860 It's probably as good as before, but it's different from what I was listening to. 00:05:28.860 --> 00:05:35.440 And when things like that happen, you almost feel like fork it off as a new podcast or change 00:05:35.440 --> 00:05:37.840 the name or branding or something like that. 00:05:37.840 --> 00:05:43.500 And I think people keep the same podcast feed because they have already got listeners and 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:44.460 subscribers everywhere. 00:05:44.460 --> 00:05:48.540 But at least maybe change the branding or name or something. 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:49.860 Yeah, I agree. 00:05:49.860 --> 00:05:52.820 It kind of reminds me of some of the music tastes. 00:05:52.820 --> 00:05:58.800 So if you take a band like Metallica, for example, they have very distinct period from 1983 to 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:05.580 1986, or I guess 1988, the first four albums, which is very thrushy, very fast, very aggressive. 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:07.360 Then they have the Black Album. 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:11.700 It kind of made them into mainstream, where you have all the Ender Sandman and other songs. 00:06:11.700 --> 00:06:17.000 Then you have 96, 98 with Load, Reload, which I guess half of the population who listens to 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:19.040 them loves, the other half hates. 00:06:19.760 --> 00:06:23.720 And more likely than not, people who really like the early albums, they don't like the 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:24.480 later ones, right? 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.100 But it's the same people, but the format just changes. 00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:27.900 Right. 00:06:27.900 --> 00:06:32.820 But at least I think in this, there is a transition. 00:06:32.820 --> 00:06:38.560 So for similar, I think music, it's very common where Nirvana, the first few albums before 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:41.540 they got popular, that's like completely different kind of music. 00:06:41.540 --> 00:06:43.720 Yeah, I don't like the first one, I think one of two albums. 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:47.320 I really like the albums when they started to go mainstream, nevermind later. 00:06:47.700 --> 00:06:50.460 Right, right, like in utero and all that. 00:06:50.460 --> 00:06:51.900 Most people don't like them. 00:06:51.900 --> 00:06:53.380 It's a very different kind of music. 00:06:53.380 --> 00:07:00.080 I think U2, they have like gone through a whole arc of different kinds of music over 00:07:00.080 --> 00:07:00.840 the years, right? 00:07:00.840 --> 00:07:04.060 But the thing there is, it's the same people. 00:07:04.060 --> 00:07:08.860 So you actually see that it's an evolution of their music. 00:07:08.860 --> 00:07:15.080 Whereas in a podcast, if you swap out the people who talk in the podcast suddenly to another 00:07:15.080 --> 00:07:20.560 one, you don't see that natural evolution that like these are the same people, they're trying 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:21.900 to do something else now. 00:07:21.900 --> 00:07:25.200 It's like, okay, the whole thing is swept out for something else now. 00:07:25.200 --> 00:07:26.860 It's just the name is retained. 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:28.340 Yeah, it's actually interesting. 00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:31.740 I'll give you an example of two music shows that I went to back in Seattle. 00:07:31.740 --> 00:07:33.620 The first one was Guns N' Roses. 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:39.260 But the opening act for them was Alice in Chains, a local Seattle band, one of my all-time 00:07:39.260 --> 00:07:44.560 favorites, but their lead singer, Lane Staley, he died in 2002, I think, or 2003, a long time 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:44.760 ago. 00:07:44.760 --> 00:07:46.920 So they now have a new guy who they performed with. 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.520 And here's the thing, like I was really looking forward to Alice in Chains, but there you go. 00:07:50.520 --> 00:07:53.420 There's this guy on the stage singing my favorite songs. 00:07:53.420 --> 00:07:56.420 It's just not the same because Lane Staley was Alice in Chains. 00:07:56.420 --> 00:08:00.180 I mean, the other guys are all very important and all, but the voice you can't substitute. 00:08:00.180 --> 00:08:03.640 But then the other show I went to a couple of years later was Judas Priest. 00:08:03.640 --> 00:08:07.780 I mean, those guys started in 1970 or 71, I think. 00:08:07.780 --> 00:08:11.540 The singer is the same as Rob Halford, an old gentleman. 00:08:11.540 --> 00:08:14.880 I think he's probably like nearly 70 at this point. 00:08:14.880 --> 00:08:20.040 But half of the other members of the band, they retired and they now have younger folks 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.180 there who are maybe like in their 30s or 40s playing the guitar. 00:08:23.180 --> 00:08:25.200 The other guy, I think, plays the bass or drums. 00:08:25.200 --> 00:08:25.840 And it's okay. 00:08:25.840 --> 00:08:27.820 It still sounds like Judas Priest, right? 00:08:27.820 --> 00:08:32.720 Because they communicate through the medium of musical instruments, but the voice, yeah. 00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:36.480 Can I do another tangent from here? 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:37.940 Yeah, go ahead. 00:08:37.940 --> 00:08:38.720 Into a meme. 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:45.720 Do you know that meme where the car, there's a car at the highway like exit and the highway 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:50.660 is like going straight on the left side and there's like an exit marked like something else 00:08:50.660 --> 00:08:55.960 that's swerving off to the right and the car is like screeching from the left to the right. 00:08:55.960 --> 00:08:59.200 I'm getting to the point slowly, but do you know that meme? 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:01.600 No, I don't, but I see it every day on Florida's highways. 00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:05.180 Maybe Florida is a meme. 00:09:05.180 --> 00:09:08.640 Yeah, it's one of the Florida men. 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:10.660 Yes, it's the Florida men. 00:09:10.660 --> 00:09:11.480 Who are a meme. 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:12.200 Yes. 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:15.300 Anyway, do you know the meme I'm talking about? 00:09:15.300 --> 00:09:15.720 No. 00:09:16.040 --> 00:09:19.420 Okay, we'll just put this in the show notes and I'll show you later after this. 00:09:19.420 --> 00:09:27.060 But I feel like our metasodes tend to always have this in the beginning where is this a metasode 00:09:27.060 --> 00:09:31.200 or are we taking an exit into something else? 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:36.440 Like because we've been talking about music and something else the whole time so far. 00:09:36.680 --> 00:09:37.900 So let's get back to it. 00:09:37.900 --> 00:09:39.940 Let's get back onto the main street. 00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:46.300 Our metasodes sometimes can be like roads in Dubai because there if you miss an exit, 00:09:46.300 --> 00:09:48.800 it might take you half an hour to get back onto the highway. 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:59.680 Yeah, I think our bonus episode 7.5, that was originally when we sat down to record that it was going to be a metasode, 00:09:59.680 --> 00:10:02.820 but it turned into something else and we decided it's too good. 00:10:02.820 --> 00:10:04.120 So let's just release it. 00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:08.160 Yeah, it was just like a one-and-a-half-hour slice of a three-hour reporting. 00:10:08.160 --> 00:10:09.340 Yeah. 00:10:09.340 --> 00:10:10.640 Cool. 00:10:10.640 --> 00:10:11.320 Yeah, I guess. 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:13.460 Yeah, welcome to our world, listeners. 00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:16.200 The world of randomness. 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:18.600 Again, not randomness, open-mindedness. 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:19.100 Yes. 00:10:19.100 --> 00:10:20.340 And freedom to explore. 00:10:20.340 --> 00:10:25.180 So one thing I wanted to quickly mention, our URL for the podcast. 00:10:25.180 --> 00:10:27.320 So we have a website hosted on Substack. 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:33.640 We registered metacastpodcast.com, but with Substack, you cannot use a second-level, top-level domain. 00:10:34.180 --> 00:10:35.480 Yeah, you need a subdomain. 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:38.120 You can just do like HTTPS metacastpodcast.com. 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:40.720 It has to be like www or something else. 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.160 And www always seemed so lame to me. 00:10:44.160 --> 00:10:46.220 It's like so late 90s. 00:10:46.220 --> 00:10:50.140 And we also weren't sure if we were going to use the main point, something else. 00:10:50.140 --> 00:10:52.720 So we created newsletter.metacastpodcast.com. 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:56.120 And I think over time, I started to kind of hate it a little bit. 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:57.400 It's like such a long URL. 00:10:57.400 --> 00:11:00.280 And also our newsletter is more than a newsletter. 00:11:00.280 --> 00:11:00.960 It's like a website. 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.400 So we actually changed to www. 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.840 Metacastpodcast.com. 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:07.500 Right. 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:11.280 But we have metacastpodcast.com forwarding to this. 00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:15.040 Yes, metacastpodcast.com and also newsletter metacastpodcast.com. 00:11:15.040 --> 00:11:17.700 I set up 301 redirects to www. 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:20.180 I think our site was down for maybe 30 minutes. 00:11:20.180 --> 00:11:20.800 Yeah. 00:11:20.800 --> 00:11:23.160 I got an email saying it's migrating. 00:11:23.160 --> 00:11:23.860 Yeah. 00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:25.580 But even after you said it, it's fine. 00:11:25.580 --> 00:11:28.820 We still had to wait for another email for changes to take effect. 00:11:29.060 --> 00:11:31.320 So it actually made me curious. 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.000 Like for us, it doesn't matter at this point. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.000 But imagine if you had lots of visitors. 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:37.940 Let's say if you had this visitor a minute. 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:42.580 So if you have a half an hour downtime, 30 people will not see the site. 00:11:42.580 --> 00:11:43.960 You won't be doing this. 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:45.360 But how do you manage that? 00:11:45.900 --> 00:11:47.920 I mean, I guess not with Substack. 00:11:47.920 --> 00:11:49.620 Not with Substack. 00:11:49.620 --> 00:11:51.480 Is there a way to manage this better? 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:52.280 Yeah. 00:11:52.280 --> 00:11:55.760 I mean, if you own the whole infrastructure, then you can. 00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:57.240 I mean, yeah. 00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:58.560 If you own, yes, you can. 00:11:58.620 --> 00:12:02.820 But if you host on Substack and if you want to migrate a domain, is there any way to have 00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:03.260 a downtime? 00:12:03.260 --> 00:12:05.940 Oh, well, I don't know on Substack. 00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:06.440 Yeah. 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:07.280 I guess. 00:12:07.280 --> 00:12:17.880 Could you create another Substack on www.metacastpodcast.com, copy over all the content and then do a 00:12:17.880 --> 00:12:18.200 redirect? 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:19.820 Yes, you can. 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:22.700 But then you have to pay 100 bucks extra for the domain. 00:12:22.700 --> 00:12:23.240 Right. 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:23.860 Okay. 00:12:23.860 --> 00:12:24.740 Anyway, cool. 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:29.560 So last week, we had Justin Jackson, spelled as Michael Jackson. 00:12:29.560 --> 00:12:30.420 Yeah. 00:12:30.420 --> 00:12:33.940 Finally, 15 minutes into the episode, we start about this. 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:34.300 Great. 00:12:34.300 --> 00:12:35.420 Yes. 00:12:35.420 --> 00:12:37.560 Yeah. 00:12:37.560 --> 00:12:38.880 I think it was a great episode. 00:12:38.880 --> 00:12:39.580 Yeah. 00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:40.400 I loved it. 00:12:40.400 --> 00:12:44.980 It was one of the episodes where we could just sit back and relax because Justin was talking 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:46.740 95% of the time. 00:12:46.740 --> 00:12:48.880 I listened to it yesterday or two days ago. 00:12:48.880 --> 00:12:50.980 It was very insightful, actually. 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.800 His depth of knowledge and breadth of knowledge and understanding of the history. 00:12:55.800 --> 00:12:57.560 I really enjoyed listening to it, actually. 00:12:57.560 --> 00:12:58.200 Me too. 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.500 And I feel like we talked about it in the episode itself. 00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:05.960 We got through less than 20% of what we had in our items to talk about. 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.980 So I think we want to do another episode with him at some point if he has the time. 00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:10.500 We'll see. 00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:11.860 Talking about time. 00:13:11.860 --> 00:13:18.640 This was the second one of those, I think, podcasters that I had reached out to. 00:13:18.640 --> 00:13:21.120 I remember one of those episodes. 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:22.180 I forget which one. 00:13:22.180 --> 00:13:22.820 Wait. 00:13:22.820 --> 00:13:25.600 Which one was the software misadventures? 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:28.220 About episode 12 or so, I feel. 00:13:28.220 --> 00:13:29.380 I think it was 12. 00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:29.980 Yeah. 00:13:29.980 --> 00:13:35.780 So that was the first one of the invites that I had sent out saying, hey, we're starting a 00:13:35.780 --> 00:13:36.220 podcast. 00:13:36.220 --> 00:13:37.580 You want to please come on in? 00:13:37.580 --> 00:13:38.620 Please be guests here. 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:41.560 They were the first ones who replied after three months. 00:13:41.560 --> 00:13:49.340 Justin, I've been like hunting Justin through Twitter for, I don't know, like nine months 00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:49.680 now. 00:13:49.680 --> 00:13:56.440 To be fair, I mean, so he's an indie developer based in BC in Canada. 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:02.140 So last year when I left my job and I was kind of trying to figure out what should I do? 00:14:02.140 --> 00:14:05.780 What would life be if I started down that path? 00:14:05.780 --> 00:14:07.860 He was one of the people I reached out. 00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:10.420 And so he replied to a lot of things before. 00:14:10.420 --> 00:14:14.820 So he and I already had a conversation going on through like Twitter DMs for a while. 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:21.260 But I think this topic of like, please come on our show, be a guest, that probably on and 00:14:21.260 --> 00:14:22.780 off going on for six months. 00:14:22.780 --> 00:14:23.140 Easy. 00:14:23.140 --> 00:14:25.200 Finally, one day he said, yeah, let's do it. 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:26.840 And then we're like, okay, let's do it. 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:28.000 Here's our calendar. 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.020 But then I think he eventually said, hey, can we do it tomorrow? 00:14:31.020 --> 00:14:33.380 And you and I both figured out a time to do it. 00:14:33.380 --> 00:14:33.920 We did it. 00:14:33.920 --> 00:14:34.900 I'm glad we did it. 00:14:34.900 --> 00:14:35.560 It was awesome. 00:14:35.560 --> 00:14:38.320 And I think he is one of those people. 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:39.780 First of all, very busy. 00:14:39.780 --> 00:14:46.340 He does a lot of things, including running a million dollar plus company with just five 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:46.680 people. 00:14:46.680 --> 00:14:49.320 And he's the he's one of the co-founders. 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:49.540 Right. 00:14:49.540 --> 00:14:53.260 And he does a lot of social media and like newsletter and podcast. 00:14:53.260 --> 00:14:55.260 He produces a lot of content. 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:56.760 YouTube videos. 00:14:56.760 --> 00:14:57.420 Yes. 00:14:57.420 --> 00:14:59.260 He produces a lot of content. 00:14:59.260 --> 00:15:01.900 So I totally get how he's busy. 00:15:01.900 --> 00:15:08.600 And I also feel like he's one of those, you know, Jake and Jonathan are very second episode. 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:13.500 One of those people who are very fourth episode are very fourth. 00:15:13.940 --> 00:15:16.160 All right. 00:15:16.160 --> 00:15:17.900 Our very fourth episode. 00:15:17.900 --> 00:15:20.540 Okay. 00:15:20.540 --> 00:15:25.700 But he's I felt like he's one of those people who are when they're in the zone, they enjoy 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:26.500 what they're doing. 00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:26.780 Right. 00:15:26.780 --> 00:15:30.780 And they don't try to schedule too many things too far out ahead in the world. 00:15:30.780 --> 00:15:35.020 And I've been trying to do that with my life with less success. 00:15:35.520 --> 00:15:37.860 But it's a nice place to be in. 00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:39.200 Yeah, I agree. 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:45.860 So this episode will come out in early June, which by that time I will have left my job. 00:15:45.860 --> 00:15:47.420 Ooh. 00:15:47.420 --> 00:15:48.280 Ooh. 00:15:48.280 --> 00:15:48.680 Yeah. 00:15:48.680 --> 00:15:53.380 So I'm on vacation now while still kind of being employed as we recorded this. 00:15:53.380 --> 00:15:55.560 But yeah, we will talk more about that. 00:15:55.560 --> 00:15:57.000 Very soon. 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:58.540 After I've left my job. 00:15:58.540 --> 00:15:58.740 Yeah. 00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:00.600 We will share, I guess, why. 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:06.700 And just talk about, I guess, jobs in big tech and why we decided to take leaps of fail. 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:09.840 Did we take leaps of faith or we took a leap of faith? 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.140 Getting very grammatical now. 00:16:13.140 --> 00:16:17.320 By the way, when you said it, at least I heard leaps of fail. 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:25.660 Well, I guess failure is part of the process, even though I hope we minimize that by putting 00:16:25.660 --> 00:16:27.920 faith in what we do, in what we leap into. 00:16:28.700 --> 00:16:34.800 So I was really excited about him going to the history of the RSS feeds and how they became 00:16:34.800 --> 00:16:40.380 part of iTunes, how Steve Jobs was personally talking to some of the people who were behind 00:16:40.380 --> 00:16:40.880 the RSS. 00:16:40.880 --> 00:16:46.780 Yes, I think we should interview Steve Jobs for one of our episodes. 00:16:46.780 --> 00:16:48.660 Yeah, man, that'll be fun. 00:16:48.660 --> 00:16:54.180 I actually don't think it would have been fun to have Steve Jobs in a podcast interview. 00:16:54.180 --> 00:16:54.740 I don't know. 00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:57.320 He must have been on some podcast episodes, right? 00:16:57.320 --> 00:16:58.300 I've never heard one. 00:16:58.300 --> 00:16:59.180 I don't know. 00:16:59.180 --> 00:17:03.140 I mean, I've seen a lot of videos of him, but they were, I think, more like presentations. 00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:06.780 Yeah, that's what I've seen too, like post-produced. 00:17:06.780 --> 00:17:09.380 Yeah, I guess he was too busy to give interviews. 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:10.420 Yeah. 00:17:10.420 --> 00:17:15.060 Also, I should not give too many opinions about something I don't know much. 00:17:15.060 --> 00:17:17.520 So I'll just shut up at this point. 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:22.200 I think when he was still alive, it was the TV era. 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:26.820 So I guess podcasts were still pretty small, even though majority of podcasts are very small. 00:17:26.820 --> 00:17:29.220 But then even more so, it was like a novelty. 00:17:29.220 --> 00:17:32.620 And I think TV was a big deal back then. 00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:35.940 But the reason I brought up interviewing Steve Jobs, I was just wondering what the reaction 00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:36.320 would be. 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:43.140 Many years ago, actually, it was back when Steve Jobs was still alive in 2011, Bork passed 00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:43.340 away. 00:17:43.340 --> 00:17:49.180 I was visiting a friend and their teenage son was starting to learn how to play the guitar. 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:50.980 And he was playing some Nirvana stuff. 00:17:51.260 --> 00:17:53.940 And I don't remember how exactly it happened. 00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:57.520 But I told him that something like that when Cabane was still alive or something. 00:17:57.520 --> 00:17:59.280 And he was like, wait, wait, wait, like he died. 00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:01.660 I'm like, okay, there you go. 00:18:01.660 --> 00:18:05.660 Yeah, he's been whatever. 00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:06.780 He died in 1994. 00:18:06.780 --> 00:18:09.260 So it's been almost 20 years since then. 00:18:09.260 --> 00:18:10.080 I think I didn't know. 00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:11.160 So I wouldn't be surprised. 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.760 Wait, it's been 30, almost 30 years. 00:18:14.760 --> 00:18:15.340 By now. 00:18:15.340 --> 00:18:18.340 But like when I talked to him, it was almost 20 years by that time. 00:18:18.340 --> 00:18:19.860 Wow, that's crazy. 00:18:20.120 --> 00:18:22.520 He must have maybe just started with Nirvana. 00:18:22.520 --> 00:18:23.500 Maybe, yeah. 00:18:23.500 --> 00:18:24.120 Yeah. 00:18:24.120 --> 00:18:27.520 Like, for example, the Alice in Chains. 00:18:27.520 --> 00:18:29.760 I didn't know that he had passed away. 00:18:29.760 --> 00:18:30.460 Oh, you didn't? 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:31.040 No. 00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:34.060 For some reason, I always look into biographies. 00:18:34.060 --> 00:18:35.000 I'm always curious. 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:38.280 Actually, Alice in Chains, I read a book on them. 00:18:38.280 --> 00:18:40.900 It's actually a very interesting story, like very heartbreaking. 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:44.220 This guy's, Lane Staley's girlfriend was a drag addict. 00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:45.360 I think, heroin. 00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:48.660 And yeah, now we definitely have to mark this as explicit. 00:18:49.300 --> 00:18:51.420 And then, so she was like in and out of rehabs. 00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:53.580 And basically, she pulled him into this. 00:18:53.580 --> 00:18:55.100 And yeah, eventually she died. 00:18:55.100 --> 00:18:56.780 She died first, I think, at the rehab. 00:18:56.780 --> 00:18:59.840 And then he become depressed and all. 00:18:59.840 --> 00:19:02.940 And he would just be in his condo in Kirkland, Washington, 00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:04.780 which is like across the lake from Seattle. 00:19:04.780 --> 00:19:06.580 And then he eventually died there. 00:19:06.580 --> 00:19:08.120 And I think a few days later, he was found. 00:19:08.120 --> 00:19:09.720 It was like not a great scene. 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:13.240 So yeah, those bands, like Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Pearl Jam, 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:19.300 they all have pretty screwed up childhoods and adolescences, depression. 00:19:19.300 --> 00:19:22.600 That's why their songs are so aggressive and edgy. 00:19:22.600 --> 00:19:28.040 And I think it resonates with lots of other teenagers in the same situation or similar situations. 00:19:28.040 --> 00:19:32.700 And in case, coming to Steve Jobs, though, I've been studying Apple quite a bit recently. 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:35.800 I always had a fascination with their products. 00:19:36.340 --> 00:19:39.500 And previously, I read a couple of books about Steve Jobs. 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:41.880 One of them is Walter Isaacson's biography of Jobs. 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:48.300 And in the last month, I've read the biography of Johnny Ive and the book called Build, 00:19:48.300 --> 00:19:54.500 which is written by Tony Fadell, who was the creator of the iPod at Apple and also the creator of Nest. 00:19:54.500 --> 00:19:58.940 And another book is called Insanely Simple by Kendall Segal, I think the name of the author. 00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:02.640 He was a marketing agency's director who worked with Jobs. 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.000 So yeah, I read all those three books in sequence. 00:20:05.560 --> 00:20:08.700 And I'm just so fascinated with Jobs and his personality, 00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:13.060 how really deeply he cared about the products that were built. 00:20:13.060 --> 00:20:16.680 You know, from all of those accounts, he was a bit of an asshole. 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:19.180 But he was so, because he really cared. 00:20:19.180 --> 00:20:25.340 Yeah, that's why I said, I don't know if it would be a good podcast guest, like to give his opinions. 00:20:25.340 --> 00:20:27.600 He'll be like, oh, you guys, your podcast sucks. 00:20:27.600 --> 00:20:28.320 It's shit. 00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:28.740 Yes. 00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:29.180 Yeah. 00:20:29.180 --> 00:20:30.460 Yeah. 00:20:30.760 --> 00:20:33.120 No, you told me about the two books. 00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:34.780 I started Build. 00:20:34.780 --> 00:20:36.680 I'm about 30% through it. 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:37.460 It's awesome. 00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:39.760 The other one, Insanely Simple. 00:20:39.760 --> 00:20:42.480 I think that's queued up in my library on a hold. 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.020 So we'll see when I get it. 00:20:44.020 --> 00:20:44.900 It's a really good book. 00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:47.360 One of the better books I've read in the last couple of years. 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:56.120 Talking about interviewing Jobs, I think we are going to do a Primeesode sometime soon, in the next few weeks. 00:20:56.120 --> 00:20:58.600 So I won't go too much into it right now. 00:20:58.600 --> 00:21:05.240 But one of the books I'm going to talk about in there is, this is the second time I'm listening to this book. 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.900 I love this book, but I won't tell you the name right now. 00:21:07.900 --> 00:21:09.100 What? 00:21:09.100 --> 00:21:09.740 Yeah. 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:13.080 I'll tell you when we record a Primeesode. 00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:18.540 But in the world of that book, we could go back and go and interview Steve Jobs. 00:21:18.540 --> 00:21:20.920 I read something about time travel. 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:26.500 Time travel is one aspect of it, but there's a lot of fun stuff going on. 00:21:26.500 --> 00:21:28.640 We'll talk more when we do the Primeesode. 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:31.200 I'm planting a seed for the future here. 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:40.760 Now, since you touched on the topic of time machine, I recently came across a video of Christopher Lloyd, who played Doc Brown in Back to the Future. 00:21:40.760 --> 00:21:43.560 With Michael J. Fox, who played Marty McFly together. 00:21:43.560 --> 00:21:48.740 And Michael J. Fox, he has had Parkinson's disease for almost 20 years, I think, at this point. 00:21:48.740 --> 00:21:53.020 And yeah, it looked actually pretty sad because I think his symptoms were showing. 00:21:53.020 --> 00:21:54.660 So he was twitching and all. 00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:58.360 And Doc Brown stands next to him, I guess, in good health and all. 00:21:58.360 --> 00:22:01.080 Yeah, it was kind of pretty sad to see. 00:22:01.080 --> 00:22:02.540 I was a fan of that movie. 00:22:02.540 --> 00:22:04.060 I still am, right? 00:22:04.060 --> 00:22:04.640 Yeah. 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:09.640 I watched that movie with my daughter and my wife again last year. 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:12.960 That was the first time she watched it and she loved it also. 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:13.720 I was so happy. 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:14.800 All the three movies. 00:22:14.800 --> 00:22:15.120 Yeah. 00:22:15.120 --> 00:22:17.080 I mean, what's not to love about the movie? 00:22:17.080 --> 00:22:18.380 It's just so good. 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:18.900 Yeah. 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:24.200 By the way, there is a documentary, I think, about Michael J. Fox. 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:26.960 Or it might have been about the whole three movies. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.380 I haven't watched it yet, but it's on Apple TV+. 00:22:29.380 --> 00:22:31.500 About an hour and a half documentary. 00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:32.400 That might be fun. 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:33.320 Oh, interesting. 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:35.280 I saw there was a documentary about DeLorean. 00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:36.160 It's an older one. 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.520 I think it was from before Apple Plus existed. 00:22:38.520 --> 00:22:39.540 I haven't watched it yet. 00:22:39.540 --> 00:22:40.920 This one is called Still. 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:42.260 S-T-I-L-L. 00:22:42.260 --> 00:22:42.880 Cool. 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.160 I need to check it out because I'm a big fan of that movie. 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.680 There is a book called We Don't Need No Roads or something. 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:49.600 Or We Don't Need Roads. 00:22:49.600 --> 00:22:52.120 It's one of the famous phrases that Doc Brown says. 00:22:52.120 --> 00:22:53.120 I think it's part two. 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:54.520 Everything's flying around. 00:22:54.520 --> 00:22:55.080 Yeah. 00:22:55.080 --> 00:22:56.540 DeLorean flies away. 00:22:56.540 --> 00:23:00.440 By the way, if you look at this scene today, it looks so lame. 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:06.380 It's like as if somebody held DeLorean with their hands and moved it. 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:07.920 And then hands were just erased. 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:08.720 It's just so unnatural. 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:09.400 Yeah. 00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:10.560 So the book actually is very good. 00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:13.820 It talks about a lot of scenes and some accidents that happened on the set. 00:23:13.820 --> 00:23:18.040 So it's like a behind the scenes of the second movie or all the movies? 00:23:18.040 --> 00:23:19.420 All the three movies. 00:23:19.420 --> 00:23:19.980 Okay. 00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:20.680 What's it called? 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:22.160 We Don't Need Roads. 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:22.760 Okay. 00:23:22.760 --> 00:23:23.500 That would be cool. 00:23:23.500 --> 00:23:24.340 It's really cool. 00:23:24.340 --> 00:23:24.520 Yeah. 00:23:24.520 --> 00:23:27.000 I got it from the library maybe seven, eight years ago. 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:27.720 Listened to it. 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.460 It's really interesting. 00:23:28.460 --> 00:23:30.940 Especially things like why they chose the DeLorean. 00:23:30.940 --> 00:23:37.040 I saw a piece of video somewhere where somebody was saying that Doc Brown doesn't ride a fucking 00:23:37.040 --> 00:23:41.760 Mustang, which implies that even a Mustang, it's not good enough for a time machine. 00:23:41.760 --> 00:23:46.260 That's why it was a DeLorean, which itself has a very infamous story. 00:23:46.260 --> 00:23:47.820 I think the company went bankrupt and all. 00:23:47.820 --> 00:23:50.100 Anyway, coming back to podcasting. 00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:55.800 We've been testing a new process for tracking our episodes because we've got so many moving 00:23:55.800 --> 00:23:57.160 pieces to do an episode. 00:23:57.160 --> 00:23:58.760 We schedule a guest. 00:23:58.760 --> 00:24:00.120 We record. 00:24:00.120 --> 00:24:03.260 I pass it off to Masha, who does the edits. 00:24:03.260 --> 00:24:04.680 And then it comes back to me. 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.500 I listen through it, do some more edits if I need to. 00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:11.220 Then I pass it to Misha, who does all of the sound engineering stuff. 00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:12.340 And he passes back to me. 00:24:12.340 --> 00:24:13.460 Then I do some listening. 00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:18.280 Then in the meantime, I also compose a Substack post, pull all the links, pictures, publish 00:24:18.280 --> 00:24:22.760 it on Substack, publish it on YouTube, publish it on all of the other platforms through Anchor, 00:24:22.760 --> 00:24:23.960 Spotify for podcasters. 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:25.640 And then we also promote this. 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.820 It's like seven or eight groups of steps that are taking place. 00:24:29.820 --> 00:24:34.360 And if you have multiple episodes going on at the same time, it's really easy to get lost 00:24:34.360 --> 00:24:34.980 in all that. 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:39.840 So we created a GitHub issues based project. 00:24:39.840 --> 00:24:44.080 I think it's called a GitHub project in our account, where basically we have this Kanban 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:48.400 board with all of those tasks that we move around now. 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:50.760 And I have a set of templates that I create. 00:24:50.760 --> 00:24:52.480 Basically, I run it around the script. 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:57.400 You run it and say like episode 24, and then it creates everything for you. 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.580 Yeah, it creates like all of those seven issues in five seconds. 00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:05.720 And each issue is created with a template so that all the links to like Google Docs and 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:07.200 all that is pre-populated. 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:08.380 Yes, correct. 00:25:08.380 --> 00:25:08.620 Yeah. 00:25:08.620 --> 00:25:13.140 And also like after we create things, we add the comments and resolve issues. 00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:18.240 So their history of what we've done and all of the links, it all stays there. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:22.120 I remember you wanted to do similar thing in Notion. 00:25:22.120 --> 00:25:24.880 I know some people are absolutely crazy about Notion. 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.900 Do you think we could have done it more easily in Notion? 00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:35.480 I was happy with Notion before you and I started working on this podcast and stuff. 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:43.720 And there is a pretty sophisticated task management kind of thing with databases and so forth. 00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:45.020 And Notion has an API. 00:25:45.020 --> 00:25:49.080 So I think it would probably be possible to like create templates like this. 00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:50.440 It definitely has templates. 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:56.700 But I haven't done that myself, like creating to-dos automatically, tasks automatically. 00:25:56.700 --> 00:26:00.140 At the same time, we are way more used to Git. 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.840 I mean, we have been using Git and GitHub for years now. 00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:07.760 So the whole project workspace thing makes sense. 00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:08.740 It's very intuitive. 00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:14.340 It's also a bit like more classical task management things like Jira and all that, right? 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:25.900 Notion, I think the biggest hurdle that you had, and after you said it, I kind of felt, oh yeah, that's true, is the editing you were not happy with, the block-based editing. 00:26:25.900 --> 00:26:28.680 And I felt that after you mentioned it. 00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:33.580 Yeah, and the gist there was that every paragraph is like a block in Notion. 00:26:33.580 --> 00:26:38.620 And especially, I think, with bullet lists, you can select multiple and then just move them around to the keyboard. 00:26:38.620 --> 00:26:42.600 And at some point, I'm like, okay, so like the basic functionality doesn't work as I expect. 00:26:42.600 --> 00:26:44.640 So go back to Google Docs. 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:50.420 Even though Notion, I must admit, it's easier to organize things in Notion because you have everything in the same place. 00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:52.580 Yeah, it's like a drag-and-drop wiki. 00:26:52.580 --> 00:26:53.000 Yeah. 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.920 In Google Drive or Google Docs, you have everything in files, essentially. 00:26:57.140 --> 00:27:03.200 And I think it's very hard to discover the URLs and all that. 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:04.680 In Google Drive? 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:05.600 In Google, yeah. 00:27:05.600 --> 00:27:07.240 Yeah, I agree. 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:13.920 Unlike a wiki where the hierarchy of the documents is implicit in the URL itself. 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:14.620 Right. 00:27:14.620 --> 00:27:18.940 Yeah, actually, I remember when I was doing my MBA, we had a person who used to work at Google. 00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:20.860 She was on the workspace team. 00:27:20.860 --> 00:27:22.880 I think she was doing like enterprise deals and stuff. 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:24.080 So it was 10 years ago. 00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:31.120 And back then, Google Drive had some really rudimentary folder management capabilities. 00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:32.740 And I remember I was talking to her. 00:27:32.740 --> 00:27:36.140 I'm like, this is just not what people are used to in terms of folders. 00:27:36.140 --> 00:27:40.960 If you want to have a nice hierarchy of things, so you can easily locate things that you're working on. 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.400 And she's like, yeah, who needs folders? 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.020 You just put everything in the same thing and you use search. 00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:46.260 Well, guess what? 00:27:46.260 --> 00:27:51.320 50 years later, Google did add a bunch of the folder management capabilities. 00:27:51.320 --> 00:27:54.780 But still, if you're in the doc, there is no indication as to which folder it's on. 00:27:54.780 --> 00:27:58.940 I mean, there is one, but like you have to click a few things and discover that. 00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:05.260 Till you showed me, I did not know that, wow, that I can actually navigate to the folder from the doc. 00:28:05.260 --> 00:28:07.140 That was like a mystery for me. 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:08.560 Yeah, it's not easily discoverable. 00:28:08.560 --> 00:28:09.420 Yeah. 00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:10.940 We've recorded enough content. 00:28:10.940 --> 00:28:11.600 We can stop. 00:28:11.600 --> 00:28:17.580 I want to talk about one more thing about the Justin Jackson episode. 00:28:17.580 --> 00:28:26.780 I love the conversation around the decentralized podcasting ecosystem and the benefits and the cost around it. 00:28:26.780 --> 00:28:36.220 And I was just imagining how different video would be if YouTube had not like basically become YouTube that quick, that fast. 00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:36.620 Right. 00:28:36.620 --> 00:28:40.120 And if it was like something like federated, like podcasts are. 00:28:40.120 --> 00:28:47.920 Yeah, it actually makes me think about the technology there because to render the one hour of audio, you only need a few minutes of computer time. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.120 And pretty much any computer can handle it. 00:28:50.120 --> 00:28:53.840 The same length of video would probably take, I don't know, maybe at least half an hour. 00:28:53.840 --> 00:28:59.800 Yeah, especially like 20 years back when YouTube became big, it was really expensive. 00:28:59.800 --> 00:29:01.140 It was very expensive. 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:03.940 You would have to have a very powerful computer to do that. 00:29:03.940 --> 00:29:05.620 But then you upload to YouTube. 00:29:05.620 --> 00:29:08.520 YouTube does all that kind of conversion and codecs and all that stuff. 00:29:08.520 --> 00:29:10.260 Oh, also think about the formats, right? 00:29:10.260 --> 00:29:12.500 Yeah, audio is pretty much all MP3. 00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:13.940 They're also like whatever the flag. 00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:16.200 I think Apple has its own like AAC or something. 00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:17.760 But MP3 is pretty much the standard. 00:29:17.760 --> 00:29:22.760 On video, you have MOV, you have MP4, you have a bunch of different codecs. 00:29:23.620 --> 00:29:25.000 Do you remember this thing called DivX? 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.400 D-I-V-X? 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.260 I don't even remember what it was at this point. 00:29:28.260 --> 00:29:29.180 I remember it was a thing. 00:29:29.180 --> 00:29:33.180 That's how I think pirated movies were basically shared around. 00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:37.640 And do you remember like to actually to play a file, I think you had to select which codec it was on. 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:40.780 So if you didn't know the codec, you have to like download the codec or... 00:29:40.780 --> 00:29:43.120 And sometimes you would have to download the codec. 00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:43.660 Yep, yep. 00:29:43.660 --> 00:29:48.140 You had to be really technical to even play video back 15 years ago. 00:29:48.140 --> 00:29:51.760 Whereas with audio, you just do Winamp and it plays your files. 00:29:52.020 --> 00:29:57.580 Yeah, and if you don't know what Winamp is or if you're on the start, you listened to our episode 14 with the creator of Winamp, Justin Frankel. 00:29:57.580 --> 00:30:07.460 Yeah, so I feel like the technical part of video is probably what partially led to a success of service like YouTube because they took all of the heavy lifting away from the users. 00:30:08.020 --> 00:30:14.980 Right, but like Apple did with podcasts, they made it easy and popular to create podcasts. 00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:19.980 Well, not create and host podcasts, but at least to subscribe to podcasts and listen to them. 00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:30.040 But they decided, I mean, this was a significant decision that they took to keep the RSS spec and keep it all in there. 00:30:30.040 --> 00:30:32.280 They could have gone that same route, right? 00:30:32.280 --> 00:30:37.220 And like built something of their own, like a podcasting thing within Apple only. 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.900 So here's the thing that you will find out from the build book, if you listen to it. 00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:43.680 I mean, you might have already listened to this part. 00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.340 Apple was on the brink of death when they were launching the iPod. 00:30:47.340 --> 00:30:50.900 So I think they were not in a position to actually build something of their own. 00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:53.460 They didn't even know if the iPod would be successful. 00:30:53.800 --> 00:30:58.420 So they wanted help from everywhere around, the ecosystem around, yeah. 00:30:58.420 --> 00:31:02.420 Yeah, so they focused on their core competency, which is like a player. 00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:06.240 In a nice case, very miniature and easy to use and stuff. 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.660 I never had an iPod, but my uncle had. 00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:09.320 It was neat. 00:31:09.320 --> 00:31:10.000 It was really nice. 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:16.080 Yeah, it would be nice to have somebody who worked on the iPod that was close to those decisions to be on our podcast. 00:31:16.080 --> 00:31:16.860 Tony Fidel, maybe? 00:31:16.860 --> 00:31:19.680 Very soon. 00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:20.380 Coming soon. 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:23.780 So Tony Fidel, if you're listening to our podcast, come to our show. 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:25.900 We are big fans of your book. 00:31:25.900 --> 00:31:28.200 And also, I have three Nest thermostats in my home. 00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:31.100 Wait, you have three different Nest thermostats? 00:31:31.100 --> 00:31:33.320 I have three different air conditioners. 00:31:33.320 --> 00:31:34.260 What? 00:31:34.260 --> 00:31:37.500 How big is your house, Ilia? 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:39.020 What are you doing running a podcast? 00:31:39.020 --> 00:31:45.080 My house is not bigger than yours, but you have X number of floors stacked on top of each other. 00:31:45.080 --> 00:31:49.760 And I have the same space spread over the ground because it's a single-story house. 00:31:49.760 --> 00:31:55.820 I mean, it's a spacious house, but it's, I would say, 80% of the house are on the same floor. 00:31:55.820 --> 00:31:59.280 To optimize this, you need to have different units, different air conditioning units. 00:31:59.280 --> 00:32:02.700 So one single, that makes sense, yeah. 00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:11.680 So I have one Nest thermostat and one AC unit, but I have two additional, you know, you can get those thermostat sensors from Nest. 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:12.380 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:13.840 So I have two of those. 00:32:13.840 --> 00:32:20.720 So the main thermostat is in the main floor of the house, but I have two sensors, one in the basement and one in the bedroom. 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:31.560 So that allows me to program the Nest app to say, like, at night, use the one in the bedroom to regulate the temperature and measure what the temperature is. 00:32:31.560 --> 00:32:35.760 Whereas during the day, use the one in the main floor, that sort of stuff, yeah. 00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:36.820 Makes a lot of sense. 00:32:36.820 --> 00:32:42.900 But yes, between you and me, we have a lot of Nest devices and sensors and cameras and stuff. 00:32:42.900 --> 00:32:46.140 So Tony Fidel should definitely come on to this podcast. 00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:48.700 Yeah, like there's no reason for him not to. 00:32:48.800 --> 00:32:53.700 And he was also talking about how bad the Honeywell thermostats were. 00:32:53.700 --> 00:32:55.640 Oh, I did hear that part, yeah. 00:32:55.640 --> 00:33:03.240 I replaced three Honeywell thermostats, which were, I couldn't figure out how to use, I mean, I could figure out how you like you adjust the temperature up or down. 00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.700 There is one mode, auto mode and off, I think. 00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:15.000 And after I installed Nest, I feel like the schedule, not the schedule, like the pattern of when AC starts became much more intelligent and I can make sense of it. 00:33:15.380 --> 00:33:23.040 This was one of my favorite parts so far from that book is the decision making that went into why it's like that. 00:33:23.040 --> 00:33:27.500 And Honeywell probably is still one of the industry leaders in that, right? 00:33:27.500 --> 00:33:29.420 Nest is probably still nowhere close. 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:38.740 Because they were the big giant in the room, they had all these technicians who are like Honeywell experts. 00:33:38.740 --> 00:33:51.860 And so even if they could, they would not release a product that would let you basically operate all of this machinery without a technician because that would disrupt a huge part of their story. 00:33:51.860 --> 00:33:58.800 So they give you devices that are difficult to use so that you have to call people and pay them to resolve whatever issues you have. 00:33:58.800 --> 00:33:59.360 Yeah. 00:33:59.360 --> 00:34:01.200 And they are Honeywell experts. 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:14.240 And this is something that Nest had to, I think, tackle because you can't get every technician or even a significant percent of technicians to move out of Honeywell and take out your like new startup thingy. 00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:15.840 So they wanted to make it DIY. 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:18.820 And I love that chapter, that part of the book. 00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:19.020 Yeah. 00:34:19.020 --> 00:34:26.700 I remember a couple of episodes ago, I told you about that air conditioning servicing company that were pushing me to replace my units that were still working. 00:34:26.700 --> 00:34:27.320 Yeah. 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:31.440 Actually, that same guy, I told him that I want to replace my thermostats with Nest. 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:36.680 He's like, no, no, no, don't install Nest because Nest will screw up the motherboard on the AC. 00:34:36.680 --> 00:34:41.220 He almost became aggressive when we were talking about this. 00:34:41.220 --> 00:34:47.840 And it actually scared me because I'm like, what if I install it and it actually screws up the motherboard on the $10,000 piece of machinery in my attic? 00:34:48.040 --> 00:34:51.020 But then I talked to a friend of mine who has installed Nest himself. 00:34:51.020 --> 00:34:52.140 And I'm like, just screw it. 00:34:52.140 --> 00:34:52.520 I'll do it. 00:34:52.520 --> 00:34:54.060 I mean, I disassembled the thermostat. 00:34:54.060 --> 00:34:55.000 I looked at the wires. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.440 I found a video that replaces exact same Honeywell thermostat with Nest. 00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:00.340 And I did exactly what I saw in the video. 00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:05.660 But the way Nest did it, I just love the experience. 00:35:05.660 --> 00:35:11.560 If I need to set up a new complicated thing like wiring and all, I'm never going to go into that. 00:35:11.560 --> 00:35:16.420 But the whole selling process, it asks you like, what do you have? 00:35:16.420 --> 00:35:17.180 Take it out. 00:35:17.180 --> 00:35:18.840 Like your current thermostat, right? 00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:23.480 Take out the thermostat control panel and see what RDs the wires here. 00:35:23.640 --> 00:35:31.260 When the Nest gets shipped to you, it comes with your personalized instructions of this is how you wire it exactly. 00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:32.680 And I just loved it. 00:35:32.680 --> 00:35:33.180 Yeah. 00:35:33.180 --> 00:35:35.180 And it also has all the tools that you will need. 00:35:35.180 --> 00:35:35.940 It has a screwdriver. 00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:37.380 Did you get to the part about the screwdriver? 00:35:37.740 --> 00:35:38.340 Yeah, yeah. 00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:42.160 How the screwdriver became like a symbol of the Nest. 00:35:42.160 --> 00:35:43.720 And yeah, that was amazing. 00:35:43.720 --> 00:35:43.980 Yeah. 00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:44.620 Yeah. 00:35:44.620 --> 00:35:46.660 It's basically like, I guess, just to recap this story. 00:35:46.660 --> 00:35:52.980 When they shipped their first, whatever, test version to people, many people were upset that they didn't have the right tools to do the installation. 00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:55.220 And they just could abandon these or it would take them too long. 00:35:55.220 --> 00:35:59.840 So they included the tiny screwdriver that cost a dollar or two dollars, which added to their cost. 00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:07.320 But then basically, once you take that control panel off, you have no excuse not to finish the project because you have everything you need at your hands. 00:36:07.460 --> 00:36:11.480 I guess unless you have some like weird stuff with your wires and you have to like do something with the wire. 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:13.660 But yeah, I guess in my case, I didn't have that problem. 00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:15.080 But Nest Thermostat is pretty expensive. 00:36:15.080 --> 00:36:16.540 I think they're like $250 a piece. 00:36:16.540 --> 00:36:23.380 I mean, I got that with the top model, but I got them at a very steep discount during Black Friday last year. 00:36:23.380 --> 00:36:28.880 Yeah, I think I also got it a few years back at some sort of discount thingy. 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:29.140 Yeah. 00:36:29.140 --> 00:36:32.560 I think I got my first one with a Google discount, which was maybe like $150 or so. 00:36:32.560 --> 00:36:37.340 And then the other two from Amazon with a Black Friday discount probably was half a price or so. 00:36:37.460 --> 00:36:38.200 It was really good. 00:36:38.200 --> 00:36:42.260 But yes, like I spent probably like $500 on three thermostats, which is not cheap. 00:36:42.260 --> 00:36:49.360 The part that I really liked about that is once you installed it and everything is done, you're done with that screwdriver. 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:57.480 But it's such a well-manufactured, beautiful screwdriver and it's handy and it's small that you kept it around. 00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:05.020 And this turned into one of their marketing channels that they had not, I think, originally anticipated. 00:37:05.020 --> 00:37:10.560 That it would just sit in your toolbox somewhere and you would pick it out and you'd remember, oh, Nest, I love this thing. 00:37:10.560 --> 00:37:14.540 And maybe it will spark some conversations with your neighbor or something like that. 00:37:14.980 --> 00:37:15.180 Yeah. 00:37:15.180 --> 00:37:26.740 And actually, I think because of the origin of Tony Fadell and also a bunch of the other employees from Apple, actually the whole Nest experience feels like it was created by a company who actually cares about its users. 00:37:26.740 --> 00:37:27.500 Yeah. 00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:28.800 All right. 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.900 It's 15 minutes into our 30-minute episode. 00:37:31.900 --> 00:37:34.020 Let's wrap this up. 00:37:34.020 --> 00:37:35.100 Yeah. 00:37:35.100 --> 00:37:39.000 Let's wrap this up Apple style in the very nice packaging. 00:37:39.980 --> 00:37:42.880 So what podcasts would you recommend there now? 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:44.700 What have you listened to in the last week or so? 00:37:44.700 --> 00:37:51.400 I actually have a anti-podcast thing to share with you. 00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:52.680 The anti-podcast podcast? 00:37:52.680 --> 00:37:53.680 Yeah. 00:37:53.680 --> 00:37:54.440 Well, no. 00:37:54.440 --> 00:38:01.220 So you remember how in one of our early episodes we talked about not using AirPods to record a podcast? 00:38:01.220 --> 00:38:01.880 Yeah. 00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:04.240 I'll share this podcast with you. 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:10.840 Maybe we'll even inject it into this, our podcast or something as an example of what happens when you use AirPods. 00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:11.680 Probably not. 00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:12.260 It's too much work. 00:38:12.260 --> 00:38:13.060 But yeah, go on. 00:38:13.060 --> 00:38:15.460 Okay. 00:38:15.460 --> 00:38:17.460 So this is a sports podcast. 00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:22.500 And I listen to it for the content, not for the production quality. 00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:24.260 And they're honest about it, too. 00:38:24.260 --> 00:38:25.500 They don't put much into it. 00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:27.380 They record it and then they release it. 00:38:27.380 --> 00:38:30.500 Like this was recorded yesterday and it was released yesterday. 00:38:30.500 --> 00:38:37.680 And it's a conversation probably recorded on Zoom or something like that, where one person is wearing AirPods. 00:38:37.680 --> 00:38:39.980 The quality is horrendous. 00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:43.280 Like you can barely kind of sometimes understand what they're saying. 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.640 There's a lot of echo and things going on. 00:38:45.640 --> 00:38:49.220 Maybe not just because of the AirPods, but it definitely added to it. 00:38:49.220 --> 00:38:52.700 And at some point, their sound just disappears and it's silence. 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.780 And when that happens in a podcast, you're like, what the heck is going on? 00:38:55.780 --> 00:38:58.760 Did my app crash or like my phone? 00:38:58.760 --> 00:38:59.420 Is it alive? 00:38:59.420 --> 00:39:00.180 What's going on? 00:39:00.180 --> 00:39:03.440 And just as you're about to like unlock and figure it out, it comes in. 00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:05.080 Oh, hey, hey, my AirPods died. 00:39:05.080 --> 00:39:06.040 Yeah, of course. 00:39:06.040 --> 00:39:11.600 And then they come back on. 00:39:11.600 --> 00:39:13.440 And I don't know what they were using after. 00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:16.080 Maybe a phone, maybe a computer. 00:39:16.080 --> 00:39:18.760 But the sound is so much better. 00:39:19.040 --> 00:39:23.200 You could see the difference between the AirPods sound and the one after. 00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:24.840 It's so much better. 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:30.380 And that is a perfect example, I felt like, for not using AirPods to record a podcast. 00:39:30.380 --> 00:39:32.040 I'll share the clip with you. 00:39:32.040 --> 00:39:35.880 You figure out if it's easy or hard, whether to add it or not. 00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.340 But I don't want to name the podcast and everything. 00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:41.320 I just want to share that specific clip in there. 00:39:41.500 --> 00:39:47.040 So, yeah, I guess we conclude this with the book, reading, listening, it's called No Filter. 00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:52.660 So that podcast probably used No Filter as like raw experience of recording audio. 00:39:52.660 --> 00:39:57.920 But the No Filter is the book about Instagram, how Instagram was founded, how it was sold 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:03.200 by Facebook, and also how it got different under Facebook management and the founders left. 00:40:03.200 --> 00:40:06.640 And I think they even participated in things like hashtag delete Facebook. 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.660 So they definitely weren't super excited with the direction where the company was taking. 00:40:10.660 --> 00:40:12.440 Yeah, I've listened to a couple of hours so far. 00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:13.100 It's really good. 00:40:13.100 --> 00:40:14.180 Very engaging. 00:40:14.180 --> 00:40:19.200 But podcasts wise, I was listening to a bunch of episodes of This Week in Startups. 00:40:19.200 --> 00:40:23.100 It's a show that actually Jake and Jonathan in our fourth episode mentioned. 00:40:23.100 --> 00:40:24.920 This guy called Jason Kalakonis. 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:27.820 He also does the All In is the other podcast. 00:40:27.820 --> 00:40:29.500 And This Week in Startups is the other one. 00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:33.340 So I listened to an interview with Brian Chesky, the CEO of Airbnb, and also to an interview 00:40:33.340 --> 00:40:35.380 with Aaron Levy, the CEO of Box. 00:40:35.540 --> 00:40:37.160 The Brian Chesky interview is really, really good. 00:40:37.160 --> 00:40:41.320 It changed my perception of Airbnb a little bit because actually Johnny Ive, the Apple's 00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:46.140 famous designer, his design firm now works for Airbnb or with Airbnb. 00:40:46.140 --> 00:40:52.560 There's a new Brian Chesky episode in the Decoder podcast that I'm waiting to listen to. 00:40:52.560 --> 00:40:53.380 Oh, interesting. 00:40:53.380 --> 00:40:54.440 I should listen to that too. 00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:58.300 So yeah, but he referenced Johnny Ive and Steve Jobs multiple times during that interview. 00:40:58.300 --> 00:41:02.120 And because I was listening to all of those books about Apple, these stories really resonated 00:41:02.120 --> 00:41:03.740 because there was recency there. 00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:10.100 So yeah, it sounds like Brian Chesky took some patterns, some inspiration from Steve Jobs. 00:41:10.100 --> 00:41:15.980 Like Airbnb wouldn't do any projects that he, as the CEO of the company, cannot kind of keep 00:41:15.980 --> 00:41:18.900 track on, which to me is like, it's a bit crazy, right? 00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:20.200 For a company of like 2,000 people. 00:41:20.200 --> 00:41:26.740 I think the definition of project might be key there because it's not possible for him 00:41:26.740 --> 00:41:28.640 to be involved in every single project. 00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:32.240 And with that, I'll see you next week. 00:41:32.240 --> 00:41:33.120 All right.