WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.600 some people may feel like they're in a rat race some people may be okay with being in a rat race 00:00:05.600 --> 00:00:10.640 being totally honest some people may actually be happy where they are they are ratatouille 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:19.140 i'm making it worse okay ratatouille is a turkish travel company 00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:32.000 hello hello hello welcome to episode 31 of the metacast podcast with ilia and arnab and ilia 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:38.060 are we kind of like back to our regular programming recording remote yeah we're recording remote and 00:00:38.060 --> 00:00:43.920 for those of you who have missed the last two episodes we were recording side by side 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:50.820 and it was a lot of fun i really enjoyed the dynamic actually one of the episodes episode 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:58.700 29 it was just you and me which was pretty cool because there was no online delays and lags and 00:00:58.700 --> 00:01:06.240 all that and episode 30 was with the startups.com founders will and ryan they were both remote but 00:01:06.240 --> 00:01:11.400 we were standing next to each other and i think it helped us to interrupt each other less so it was 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:17.240 good yeah i think the video though was a bit weird like when i looked at the shorts that we created 00:01:17.240 --> 00:01:24.800 because i'm looking like sideways at you like this and not at you like this so yeah so this time i 00:01:24.800 --> 00:01:29.340 would like to control the conversation a little bit and go to the checklist right and for those of you 00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:34.840 who listened to the last episode you know exactly why i'm making this comment so what are we talking 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:40.220 about today oh thank you for putting me on the spot because i thought you wanted to go to the checklist 00:01:40.220 --> 00:01:45.680 and like yeah let's do it no no i thought because you wrote what are we going to talk about today i didn't 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:48.660 realize it was a question for me yeah but i can do it i can do that's fine 00:01:48.660 --> 00:01:55.820 taking the reins so today we're going to talk about a few changes that we're making to the podcast 00:01:55.820 --> 00:02:01.540 they aren't going to be big changes but pretty significant in terms of how we approach it 00:02:01.540 --> 00:02:05.600 and it's still going to be weekly don't worry you'll still get your regular dues 00:02:05.600 --> 00:02:13.440 exactly so then we want to talk about our off-site that we had all hands all hands yes 00:02:13.440 --> 00:02:18.600 when i was in vancouver so if you don't know what you're talking about listen to episode 29 because we 00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:23.280 touched on that a little bit but yeah we spent some time working in person we want to talk about 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:31.900 that and last but not least not at least in terms of money so we want to talk about the book that we've 00:02:31.900 --> 00:02:38.940 just published and yeah we'll talk a bit about what the book is about and where you can buy it if you 00:02:38.940 --> 00:02:43.820 want to start a podcast if you want to support us all right so let's get started so can you believe 00:02:43.820 --> 00:02:50.740 that we're 30 episodes in this is episode 31 it's actually 33 right because one of the episodes 00:02:50.740 --> 00:02:58.540 was two part episode 24 where we talked about living our jobs was episode 24 1 and 24 2 and also we had 00:02:58.540 --> 00:03:06.700 a bonus episode 7.5 yes prime episode we are not very consistent with our naming no no we are actually 00:03:06.700 --> 00:03:12.860 very consistent those are the only ones and that 24 part 1 and part 2 made total sense i think 00:03:12.860 --> 00:03:18.460 to me at least yeah exactly so in this episode if we didn't cut the topics in half it would have been 00:03:18.460 --> 00:03:23.980 a two-part episode or a very long episode which we were asked not to do anymore so yeah i guess 00:03:23.980 --> 00:03:32.000 episode 31 kind of turning over a leaf after 30 plus 3 episodes 33 episodes into episode 31 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:39.240 so officially or unofficially we are into season 2 of the podcast and with that we are doing a few 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:46.340 subtle changes to what is the focus of the podcast and what are we going to talk about it to be honest i 00:03:46.340 --> 00:03:53.420 think it's not that we are doing a change to the podcast we are just formalizing what we had already 00:03:53.420 --> 00:04:02.360 been doing since like episode 24 or so yes so let's first actually tell the listeners what we are changing 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:07.980 and then i want to bring up the other point so the podcast today is called metacast the podcast about 00:04:07.980 --> 00:04:13.000 podcasting actually no that's what it was called last episode so starting from this episode it's called 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:21.120 metacast behind the scenes which is kind of meta but it's also it also reflects what we have been doing 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:28.600 all this time we have been talking about us starting a company how we got there why we are doing this 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:35.740 talking about processes talking about all sorts of things that are related to our company the reason 00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:42.400 why we started as a podcast about podcasting tagline is our initial hypothesis was that we will talk about 00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:46.840 all things podcasting podcasters will love it they will listen to it and they will have a lot of 00:04:46.840 --> 00:04:52.400 connections with podcasters who can then advertise our app so we are building a podcast app in case if 00:04:52.400 --> 00:04:57.420 you missed that we're building a podcast app which will be awesome and will come out later this year 00:04:57.420 --> 00:05:02.920 so that was the hypothesis right and i was still having a full-time job at google so we were kind of 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:08.460 thinking about that but we weren't building anything yet but we started a podcast we weren't ready to 00:05:08.460 --> 00:05:13.400 talk about the app and the platform and all that too i mean if you think about it we started recording 00:05:13.400 --> 00:05:20.680 those first few episodes in october in 2022 and i actually you and i talked about the app and the 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:26.860 platform and all that like maybe in march or so like seriously we kind of had an idea that we want to 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:32.540 work on something like this but we definitely weren't ready exactly yes so that whole thing of podcasters 00:05:32.540 --> 00:05:38.240 listening to us didn't happen and maybe one of the reasons is that we aren't really going too much into 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:44.000 the technical stuff like let's say the podcast junkies podcast goes and uh yeah if actually any 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:47.880 of you listening know harry duran introduce us to him we would like to get him on the podcast we will 00:05:47.880 --> 00:05:53.060 get him i think at some point that didn't happen but what did happen was we met a lot of cool podcasters 00:05:53.060 --> 00:05:59.600 and we interviewed them but we always always ended up talking about careers entrepreneurship and a bunch of 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:04.140 other stuff but the common thread there is podcasting anyway because we are building a podcast app 00:06:04.140 --> 00:06:10.860 and people we invite to the show all of them have some kind of connection with either podcasting or 00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:15.400 audio so what we are going to change about the podcast is that i think we will continue inviting 00:06:15.400 --> 00:06:22.020 the same kind of guests but we will talk more about building a business and how in case they are 00:06:22.020 --> 00:06:26.660 podcasters how podcasts help that how they build their social persona their podcasting persona how they 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:32.200 promote it all of that but podcasting is no longer the primary topic of it and i think the jason 00:06:32.200 --> 00:06:38.040 freed episode episode 28 was the turning point because we wanted to talk about their podcast but 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:43.920 we ran out of time and we never did yeah but it was such a great episode regardless yeah it was 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:48.880 probably our best episode so far in terms of like how much we personally learned from that and also in 00:06:48.880 --> 00:06:54.420 terms of popularity popularity wise it's not the most popular episode but it is up there it's like 00:06:54.420 --> 00:07:01.200 in the top five we did get a lot of exposure from that episode too yeah and what we heard back from 00:07:01.200 --> 00:07:07.940 people is also similar our episodes where we talked about building the new startup taking the like 00:07:07.940 --> 00:07:14.780 basically the leap of faith to jump out of like career jobs and do something like that where we talk to 00:07:14.780 --> 00:07:20.760 other people about their journeys building things those seem to resonate a lot with our listeners i mean 00:07:20.760 --> 00:07:29.400 of the four or five really like touching uh experiences emails people that we have met uh that we have had 00:07:29.400 --> 00:07:34.620 everybody said the same thing right those are the episodes that they love the most and so we're like 00:07:34.620 --> 00:07:42.920 okay so that's the second topic the second part the third part is that we are also now more and more 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:49.620 open about what we're building right it's becoming real we're launching our alpha this week and so 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:54.900 alpha is in like close bit we don't have to we'll talk about it in the next episode or so anyway so we 00:07:54.900 --> 00:07:58.540 won't go this week meaning last week because this episode comes out next week so for the record 00:07:58.540 --> 00:08:03.880 we're recording this on august 9th this episode will come out uh actually next wednesday right 00:08:03.880 --> 00:08:11.660 august 16th is when it's gonna come out so essentially our app is now there it's invite only for now 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:17.360 but it is there we're experimenting with it so this means that we are ready to talk more and more about 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:23.380 it and about our journey so all of these things combined like you said like are naturally converging 00:08:23.380 --> 00:08:28.600 towards like entrepreneurship and starting that people telling us that that's what they want to hear 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:35.520 and us being ready i think that all kind of jives well into this moment where we turn the page and say 00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:41.460 season two unofficially and we go with this metacast behind the scenes 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:47.940 yes we were talking a lot more but because now we almost sort of gave ourselves a license 00:08:47.940 --> 00:08:54.300 to be more uh less about podcasts and more about the other things and what i've heard from people is 00:08:54.300 --> 00:08:59.520 that the stuff that resonated with them is not like oh now i know how to do this podcast stuff or 00:08:59.520 --> 00:09:04.200 something like that it was all about like we were talking to one person and she said that 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:09.120 she's still coming to terms with leaving her high-paid job and all and she's like i need to listen to 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:14.000 you a second episode 24 a second time and actually the other person who wrote an email to us he also 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:18.960 listened to that episode twice because those are the things that really struck the chord with people 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:24.200 and uh not any of the stuff you know where you talk about descript and all that which you know i would 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.640 say is good and useful enough i would say in those episodes because we would always go on tangents 00:09:28.640 --> 00:09:33.520 right i would say some of those bits are probably useful but like if you take this whole is a thing 00:09:33.520 --> 00:09:38.520 this whole thing right listen for one hour of that there is probably 10 minutes of really good useful 00:09:38.520 --> 00:09:45.360 info for podcasters but the rest only matters for people who have built or are in the market for an 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.520 emotional connection with us and i'm saying being in the market for emotional connection with us 00:09:49.520 --> 00:09:54.160 meaning that people are looking for podcasters for podcasts and they somehow discover us and they 00:09:54.160 --> 00:09:59.040 connect with us of the people who reached out to us none of them were podcasters but they were all 00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:05.760 mostly actually software engineers or people in other places some related kind of area yeah i have to call this 00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:11.600 out is it okay if i name that person who approached us at the dinner i think so we asked her and she said it's 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:19.760 fine so yes so first of all hi pinky thank you for listening so we were you visiting your friends in 00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:25.600 vancouver for dinner it was a few families there and i just talked along because i was with you 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:32.480 and uh so one person comes in and she's like oh my god you're illia i'm like i'm like you guys discussed 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:36.800 this in whatsapp that i'm coming and all you didn't know that yeah nobody else was so excited about 00:10:36.800 --> 00:10:41.600 seeing me i mean they were they were glad to see me but they were not excited to see me and she was 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:46.880 just like so excited and yeah then you know i found out that she actually has been a fan of ours 00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:50.960 she's been listening to you know the all of the episodes and i think she's a designer is it right 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:55.840 yeah yeah so nothing to do with podcasting but she just connects i mean she's your friend uh so 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:59.440 obviously she connects with you but she also i guess built that connection with me as well 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:04.720 through the podcast that was very exciting and i think this is the kind of connection that i would 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:10.640 like to build with people more so if our podcast resonates with you you know where to find us i 00:11:10.640 --> 00:11:17.520 think we've been talking about this ad nauseum hello at metacastpodcast.com so one other thing that we 00:11:17.520 --> 00:11:23.680 have been talking a lot about and i guess both of us want that is to be more deliberate about how we do 00:11:23.680 --> 00:11:30.400 our podcast we don't want to be like step by step kind of how to kind of show we want to be very lively 00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:35.840 and engaging but at the same time previously we would prepare really well with our guests because 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.520 we don't want to make the wrong impression we want to make sure that we are just this kind of people 00:11:39.520 --> 00:11:46.000 but when it came to our own podcast we would just go on the whim and just talk about whatever which i 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:51.440 think the more episodes we record the more jarring it might become because the more relaxed we have 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:56.480 become but if somebody listens to just this episode and not the previous 30 they might not get some of 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:01.520 the things that we're talking about so yeah i want to be more deliberate about the length first of all 00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:07.120 uh say 45 minutes probably a sweet spot i would say between 30 and 45 minutes because that's what 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:12.480 people have been telling us to we'll see we're halfway there by the way are we because i have i have my 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:18.560 camera in obstructing the timer so me too me too yeah i can go on like forever on this yeah so being 00:12:18.560 --> 00:12:23.440 shorter i think is one of the things and second in one of the episodes we were talking about how we 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:28.240 want to make one improvement every episode and i think you've been working on this improvement and 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:32.960 you've been pushing both of us for the last few weeks is announce what we are going to be talking 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:40.080 about in this episode so today we almost derailed this but we are trying we are trying yeah yeah and 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:46.880 then for me personally i'm trying to speak slower and just be more deliberate so i have less to edit 00:12:46.880 --> 00:12:53.520 later on but also i think it's just a good habit to build because it will serve me well everywhere 00:12:53.520 --> 00:13:00.400 right so when i listen to our podcast i don't feel like you're going too fast you're almost always way 00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:06.080 slower and more deliberate than i am i think it's not about just the speech the actual like 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:12.800 pronunciation of syllables even though that as well it's also about stutter stutter and false starts 00:13:12.800 --> 00:13:18.480 which you don't hear for most part when you listen to our podcast because they're all cut out you're 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:23.360 trying to reduce that work for yourself yes but also i'm realizing this is how people hear 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:28.240 me and even if they don't pay so much conscious attention in regular conversations still when 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:33.200 somebody sounds much more deliberate and precise especially in professional setting i think it 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:38.800 helps a lot it just builds your credibility you sound more confident and you sound more confident 00:13:38.800 --> 00:13:45.040 even if you like no shit about what you're talking about okay let's go to the next topic so so 00:13:45.040 --> 00:13:50.560 very quickly the punchline of that whole thread what is the value that we're hoping to bring with 00:13:50.560 --> 00:13:58.480 the new format of metacast behind the scenes just a question for me again okay so first i always ask 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:03.600 the hard questions ilia yeah i should have been used to that after eight years working with you 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:14.880 so we want to encourage people who are either working on their business or and are as early as us or even 00:14:14.880 --> 00:14:19.840 earlier if that's even possible but primarily i guess people who are in that journey where maybe 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:25.360 they are employed or they're doing something that they don't like or they're lost or all of the above 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:29.760 and we've been there we've been there i mean we've been there not like in the last two months we've been 00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:36.800 there for the last years and we talk about that some insights come out of how we got out of that rat race 00:14:36.800 --> 00:14:41.440 into what you're doing right now we don't know if it's going to work out so uh there's a lot of 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:45.920 vulnerability i guess that goes on into making this podcast especially if it doesn't work out 00:14:45.920 --> 00:14:50.640 because then we would look back at this and we're like okay but at the same time it's a great diary 00:14:50.640 --> 00:14:54.640 even for us to go back and listen to this but i think for people who are going through this a little 00:14:54.640 --> 00:14:56.720 bit behind us i think that will be very helpful 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:03.600 one quick note i'll add there ilia is you said rat race i just have a kind of like negative reaction to 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:11.600 that because it may not necessarily be a rat race certainly some people are in there just for like 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:18.800 the race and the ego and the status that comes with all of that but a lot of people actually like 00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:23.520 doing that and you and i were like that then they're not in the rat race they are doing what 00:15:23.520 --> 00:15:30.400 they want but i think even with that you and i were happy but we knew that we want to if we had the 00:15:30.400 --> 00:15:36.160 chance we want to do something on ours of our own that actually gets very interesting because i think i 00:15:36.160 --> 00:15:43.440 had moments when i was happy but overall i spent 16 years total working in big companies and i would 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:50.640 say percentage wise for most part doing the work i was doing i was not happy so that's why i use the term 00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:55.360 the rat race maybe i should have said the people who feel like they are in the rat race because yeah 00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:00.160 some people may not agree with me with that and actually thank you for correcting me on this one 00:16:00.160 --> 00:16:05.840 because it's one of the things that i'm working on is to actually see when i say stupid things or not 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:11.600 stupid things but things that might be perceived as offensive because i just say them so directly 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:19.360 without adding i think right yeah like some people may feel like they're in a rat race some people 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:25.280 may be okay with being in a rat race being totally honest some people may actually be happy where they 00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:31.200 are but they may start to be inspired so they are ratatouille they're okay 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:40.160 i'm making it worse okay rat at uh yeah anyway um they actually too is a uh i think it's a turkish 00:16:40.160 --> 00:16:49.120 travel company so anyway you're right at that point yes where you're losing 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:58.560 okay rat at anyway but i think it's also to inspire people who are thinking like hey maybe i want to do 00:16:58.560 --> 00:17:04.800 this someday and also being totally honest like you said we are i do feel very vulnerable about 00:17:04.800 --> 00:17:11.520 documenting these things on the internet in case it doesn't work out the good thing about audio is it 00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:17.760 cannot be easily copied and distributed yeah of course sure sure no i mean like text can just go 00:17:17.760 --> 00:17:24.080 viral audio just doesn't go viral well unless it's like our video unless our the thing that we're making 00:17:24.080 --> 00:17:32.960 makes it possible ironically yeah yeah we are very far away from where we need to be so let's head back 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:40.480 towards the railway track the rat track yes so next thing we want to talk about is working in person 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:45.280 and what kind of value we got out of it because for the last three years i've been working remotely for 00:17:45.280 --> 00:17:50.240 the last three years you've been working remotely for even longer and i think we kind of got used to 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:57.200 being remote but i didn't realize actually how lonely i would feel this summer i worked with google 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:02.080 for three years visit the office twice in those three years and also only the tail end of my time 00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:07.120 there but it was fine every day i was talking to a lot of people because i had a lot of meetings 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.160 so that was part of the rat race right it's like getting out of that thing where you can't control 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:16.880 your schedule but while doing that so it was like i would be in meetings back to back all day talking 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:21.680 to people great people lovely people love them all just i guess didn't want so much of it but it kept 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:28.400 me busy and then i would have my family in the evening and then obviously for the weekend but now my family 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:34.960 is out of town they've been out of town since late june and they're only coming back in uh august so i've 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:42.160 been by myself for actually exactly a month when i came to visit you and that month was very very lonely 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:48.880 because like sometimes i wouldn't speak much to a person to a person right because you've also you 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:54.400 moved to florida last year so you haven't made a lot of like social connections yet in that area 00:18:54.400 --> 00:19:01.040 exactly yes and also it is crazy hot here yeah in june it was just hot right at least in the evening 00:19:01.040 --> 00:19:08.160 i would go for a run uh or just take a walk now like i came back from vancouver in early august and i'm 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:14.000 keep getting these messages uh from i think it was on the ring ring up it's like heat wave like 150 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.960 degrees fahrenheit i don't even know how much it is i never had to convert more than 90 to celsius 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:24.640 but it's like i think getting closer to 40 degrees celsius so today i walked from a car to a shopping 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:31.440 mall for maybe 200 meters so it's like 200 yards in american in imperial system so i went back and forth 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:37.360 within an hour i had a terrible headache when i got to my car it was just incredible how 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:43.200 this excessive heat can make you feel so yeah that didn't that didn't help my loneliness that's 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:48.480 very very long with that way to say that i got really really lonely here so actually i won't go too 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:56.320 far on this thread but i will point out that one of our listeners i actually i won't name them 00:19:56.320 --> 00:20:00.880 i don't know if they want to be named or not but i started following them we had a meeting with them 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:06.640 like last week and then i started following them on instagram and they published uh like a really good 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:12.400 book that i started listening to why i'm saying that it's called ministry of future and it's about 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:19.280 the climate crisis it's the ai ministry no yeah not yet but it might turn into who knows like i'm about 00:20:19.280 --> 00:20:25.120 maybe 20 percent into the book but it starts with exactly that there's a huge disaster with the climate 00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:31.520 crisis and about 40 degrees temperature but also high humidity at the same time and how like millions of 00:20:31.520 --> 00:20:36.480 people died yeah and as we speak actually i don't know if you've heard or not there was a fire 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:45.440 caused by some sort of a like heat thing in hawaii in maui i might be wrong but i believe some lives were 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:52.480 lost there and they're like crazy videos out there right now of the fire it's in maui anyway yeah coming 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:58.960 back to topic i think yeah a month of being on your own without talking to a person i can imagine 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:07.840 because i was going to coffee shops just to talk to the baristas and they're maybe like why is this 00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:12.960 person like talking to like just get your coffee and go sit and work i learned all their names 00:21:14.560 --> 00:21:21.760 right right and but i think it's a very valid point because even though i left my job it's been 00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:29.120 actually just shy of a year now that i left my job i did spend the first three months like no connections 00:21:29.120 --> 00:21:35.840 at all except for my family but i did have my family but since then i have been going to a lot of like 00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:42.480 tech meetups and social connection like you saw how much of social connection there was when you came to 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:48.880 vancouver like we went to people's houses and all that so i haven't felt too much of that and i have 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:55.280 been coding way more than i was and i think that's maybe why that's making me happy or keeping me happy 00:21:55.280 --> 00:22:01.520 yeah cool so this brings us to the value of in-person communication and it's just fundamental 00:22:01.520 --> 00:22:10.080 human level we need that we are social creatures we just need people to stay sane i think i mean some 00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:14.480 deep introverts might disagree with me right now i don't know but i think for majority of people 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:21.040 even for introverts like i am actually still meaningful connections are important it reminds me that 00:22:21.040 --> 00:22:27.280 podcast that i've previously talked about so paul rosalie a conservationist working at amazon was on 00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:32.560 lex friedman's podcast and he was talking about those solo trips he does in the jungle where he basically 00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:38.240 only sees nature and animals and he said like he brings photographs and national geographic magazines 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:43.760 with him because uh you just start to get a little cuckoo it like on the fifth day you just need that 00:22:43.760 --> 00:22:51.840 connection yeah we're like hardwired to be social at this point exactly yes so but also the other thing is 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:59.040 there are some conversations that we had while driving for example or while taking the walk that we did not have 00:22:59.040 --> 00:23:08.160 during video conferences we do long and lengthy video calls but i think it was way easier maybe because of 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:14.880 the in-person like body language dynamic but it's almost like i don't even have to say it you know what 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:21.120 i'm going to say already yeah but also sometimes one of the hard conversations we had i think it was 00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:28.880 about our approaches to schedules and to shipping too early or shipping something that may not be reliable 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:36.560 where we had a slightly differing opinions or levels of comfort i guess these kind of topics are harder to 00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:41.280 bring up when you don't see the person just because you don't know how they're going to react and you 00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:46.080 you don't know if what you're seeing in terms of their reaction is their true reaction if you do 00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:53.280 it over video but if you are looking at them it's just much easier to navigate a discussion that might 00:23:53.280 --> 00:23:58.080 turn i don't know the right word for that but it's like it might be a bit hard to talk about these 00:23:58.080 --> 00:24:02.160 things because it's a bit like challenging each other and i feel like challenging each other is easier in 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:10.960 person so i would say this my personal experience with this is if i haven't met a person at all like 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:17.360 in real life i've only seen them on video then it's hard to have these kind of conversations but for 00:24:17.360 --> 00:24:23.600 example you and me i have no trouble having hard conversations with you on video because i have 00:24:23.600 --> 00:24:31.280 worked with you quite a lot and i think that personal respect and trust it's there where 00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:37.840 i know i can be like totally up front and like honest with you and you will be honest with me but 00:24:37.840 --> 00:24:44.240 let's say i start working at a place where i haven't met most of the people it's of course going to be 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:50.480 very hard and it's it's going to be way easier to meet them work with them maybe a few times in 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:57.920 person and then the relationship gets way smoother when you're back remote yeah maybe we differ in 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:04.480 this a little bit but i fully agree with you that the level of previous respect and background really 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:10.960 matters a lot i guess i'm focusing more on that can last five percent of like looking at the eyes and 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.840 getting those cues and all that yeah because i'm very sensitive i sometimes say stupid stuff or 00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:21.120 stuff that people might be offended by but then i immediately recognize it when you're in person 00:25:21.120 --> 00:25:26.240 because i see those micro reactions but on video i don't you see what i mean because you are more 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:31.680 politically correct than me just in general so you generally don't blurt out things like i do and then 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:37.760 and then regret it right so maybe this is very different i mean i do say my fair share of stupid 00:25:37.760 --> 00:25:44.000 things i just don't even realize it until i tell you about it but i have to be like with you in the 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:50.880 car to talk about it i'm just kidding i'm just kidding no no yeah but that's true i do say my fair 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:58.240 share more maybe more than that of stupid stuff but it's okay i i at least people like you or like 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:04.960 people that i work or live with i know that they get me so yeah one thing i also noticed actually about 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:11.120 myself let's just get vulnerable right so we stayed i mean i stayed in your house for i think it's about 00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:17.840 12 days and we worked a lot then we also had this trip to vancouver island for three days and we also 00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:23.680 did this whistler trip we went to that gathering of multiple families so all of that was very tiring 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:29.360 for me also also like i was out of my comfort routines i wasn't doing any exercising except for 00:26:29.360 --> 00:26:34.960 walking i was drinking too much i'll say one thing that you mentioned i think on the second or third 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:41.840 day that you felt like you were like almost like a toddler that others were making decisions about 00:26:41.840 --> 00:26:48.000 where to go when to go what to do and all that and you were just tagging along and you completely bought 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:55.920 into that role oh my god that was so comfortable but i think eventually it is significantly different 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:01.840 from like especially after a month of being completely alone i think it was a big change 00:27:01.840 --> 00:27:09.760 i think i was very energetic inside but physically i think i was very drained and then i think the last 00:27:09.760 --> 00:27:15.520 few days it started to get to me i think i became just irritated for no reason on some occasions and 00:27:15.520 --> 00:27:19.840 then i would need to drink a coffee and eat a muffin and that would make me feel good again which 00:27:19.840 --> 00:27:26.160 is not the right way to approach this you should just sleep but um in any case my point there could 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:33.280 also be too much of in-person work if you are outside of your common environment and uh i mean i was 00:27:33.280 --> 00:27:37.760 tagging along everywhere which was great but at the same time i think next time we should probably limit 00:27:37.760 --> 00:27:45.040 this to a week and maybe with one weekend i might also take away was that this was our first all hands 00:27:45.040 --> 00:27:53.600 right and i think in this all hands if you look back at it we did two things social things like we 00:27:53.600 --> 00:28:01.040 went on trips or something like that and all has been four hands and two paws and well six with our cdo 00:28:01.040 --> 00:28:07.600 boomer yeah two hands and two paws okay yeah yeah yeah we did two things one is we had 00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:14.320 some social like trips and we went to people meet people and all that and every other moment that we 00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:23.440 weren't doing that we were working and it was intense and i think we got a lot of stuff done it was 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:32.320 at the right time for our nascent company to have this kind of a thing but i feel like at least me i 00:28:32.320 --> 00:28:39.840 burned myself out in like seven or eight days yeah i would second that i actually enjoyed working like 00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:45.680 that for a little bit when i came back home yesterday i just realized actually yesterday was easy because 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:51.920 i just went to bed and i didn't do much but today i had to make my own breakfast yeah and i'm like okay 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:58.400 so there are actually benefits to live in your house not in my place right um yeah i agree with you and 00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:06.240 in terms of getting things done we didn't do much coding in those two weeks but we hashed out what exactly 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:12.240 we're launching what is the priority of those features yeah pricing strategy pricing strategy 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:17.680 yeah because we had i think two or three iterations on that because it's not straightforward for how 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:23.040 you price a podcast app even though our app will be the best podcast app ever created by mankind if 00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:27.200 you price it wrong nobody will use it right and if you price it too low we may not break even because 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:34.640 we have costs there's a bunch of that uh stuff yeah and you and i we come from like a big tech product 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:41.280 development background so we just have this inherent tendency of looking very forward right the vision 00:29:41.280 --> 00:29:48.400 and trying to like break down things into smaller chunks prioritize it which i feel like we're doing 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.640 a good job we're not thinking like five years down the line what are we we're not writing a plan 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:57.520 for five years down the line because everything is a guess at this point if you're on either of those 00:29:57.520 --> 00:30:04.080 extremes you can be in really bad shape if you are too big company focused where you actually write 00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:09.440 all those strategy and all that well all you do is you're just planning and you're doing nothing you're 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:15.600 guessing not even planning yes you're guessing instead of doing the work right yes so it's kind 00:30:15.600 --> 00:30:21.680 of one apprenticeship at its worst right but also the other spectrum like other end of the spectrum 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:27.600 like you said yeah the other end of the spectrum you can be just be so myopic that uh you work on 00:30:27.600 --> 00:30:33.200 something and you think of a feature that you should have thought a month ago or a customer says hey 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:38.880 wouldn't it be nice to have this and you immediately go and build that wars actually and you want to go 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.640 and build it but your ui cannot scale to that you have to redo your flows or like there is no way 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:49.840 to stick that button in all that kind of stuff right so for us we have a very long list of things that 00:30:49.840 --> 00:30:54.400 we want to add to the app we do not break them down into how we're going to build them what we're going 00:30:54.400 --> 00:31:00.080 going to do but when we work on a screen let's say we were looking at the podcast info screen 00:31:00.080 --> 00:31:06.400 and we were thinking what are the other elements that you'll need to go in here so that we design it 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:12.000 now such that those elements could be easily added and we don't break any patterns because most of the 00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:18.480 software becomes bloatware when people add features that they didn't think about up front and it's just 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.320 left and right worst case scenario it's also done by different teams in some kind of like a shared 00:31:22.320 --> 00:31:28.080 framework where nobody has a centralized control and then you end up with the franken frankenware 00:31:28.080 --> 00:31:33.440 frankenstein yeah frankensoft yeah so and we try to avoid that so we're trying to balance that 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:38.800 middle which means sometimes we may spend a bit more time than let's say a hungry startup would 00:31:38.800 --> 00:31:44.240 on kind of deliberation but at the same time we know exactly where we're going well exactly as in 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:50.560 we know what will be the other things in here and we just not building it right now yeah we just don't 00:31:50.560 --> 00:31:55.520 architect ourselves in the corner because that could be an easy thing just for example right there are 00:31:55.520 --> 00:32:01.920 four million podcasts it is very hard to build infrastructure for four million podcasts even an app 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.560 it's very hard and it requires very different approaches from building something for a thousand 00:32:06.560 --> 00:32:13.280 podcasts or even ten thousand podcasts and four million podcasts and like 70 80 million episodes total 00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:20.480 i think and multiplied by we operate at not the audio what sets us apart is not the audio right for 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:29.360 most podcast apps a podcast and an episode is a url to an audio file we operate at like a thousand 00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:35.600 or maybe ten thousand level deeper because we're operating at almost every sentence or word level 00:32:36.800 --> 00:32:42.400 so we are not doing the bird's eye view right like other apps we are doing an octopus level view giant 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:48.640 squid view right so the amount of data that we're talking about is like humongous already for a 00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:54.240 two-person startup yes and you can easily design yourself into a corner if you do it for a thousand 00:32:54.240 --> 00:33:00.000 podcasts because then very soon you will start hitting scaling issues and then what do you do it's not 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:05.360 like you can just work your way around it you will have to re-architect the whole thing and then while 00:33:05.360 --> 00:33:11.200 it is being re-architected you will either not onboard new users or you like have to limit the data that 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:18.160 you work with or the thing is just plain broken for a while and we won't name apps but one of your 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:24.880 favorite apps ilia that you used to listen to podcasts with is unfortunately in a state like that right now 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:31.840 where the notifications are generic because well i won't go into why it's generic but yeah anyway 00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:36.160 yeah yeah our hypothesis is that they actually don't know how to handle all the data or they 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:40.960 don't have the right infrastructure and that's why at a certain point the experience really hit the 00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:44.960 bottom yeah i'll just let my subscription lapse which is a good thing i guess because now i can 00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:50.880 subscribe to our app you're not paying for it anymore yeah yeah okay but one more i think super fun 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:58.720 thing out of this was that you came back to software development like guns and i don't want to talk 00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:04.960 about guns swinging and swords and all that going on a tangent again sorry we'll try to keep it into 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:12.480 one minute recently maybe a few months ago i realized not realize i read somewhere and then introspected and 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:22.240 felt how much of the words that we use in software the industry are about wars and fights i'll give you 00:34:22.240 --> 00:34:29.040 more and more examples but there's a lot of like deadline and so many things if you just take a moment 00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:36.080 and when you say things think about it it's all like coming from the military and i'm trying to actively 00:34:36.080 --> 00:34:43.600 trying to like not say things that are like inherently tied to wars and violence yes you're applying some 00:34:43.600 --> 00:34:52.560 gun control yeah so so you didn't come out swinging your guns but you did come out building out our 00:34:52.560 --> 00:34:59.040 app for android which was awesome yeah yeah so i guess for those people i don't know if we discussed 00:34:59.040 --> 00:35:08.000 before or not so my training unlike yours was actually computer science yes which one of us 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:18.320 the cto or the ceo who had the education in computer science exactly yes so i used to really love and 00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:24.240 enjoy programming when i started recording when i was a teenager but it unfortunately for me i guess 00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:30.320 happened at the time when tooling was so bad and also i was in a fairly remote place i didn't really have 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:34.720 good role models of coders because i was doing my own thing working as a freelancer so i was just 00:35:34.720 --> 00:35:39.680 figuring stuff on my own and it was like early 2000s late 90s there was no stock overflow there were 00:35:39.680 --> 00:35:46.080 no developer tools in browsers there was no aws or firebase the browser was like netscape and internet 00:35:46.080 --> 00:35:52.000 explorer yeah there was no cloud none of that existed so it was very hard well it was easier in some 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:58.000 way to like just get started like build an app by me in like a program for windows or like a website 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:02.320 right but it was very difficult to debug it was very difficult to work with other people so if i had 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:07.680 a mentor like you i actually might have stayed in coding i think but i didn't so i decided to do 00:36:07.680 --> 00:36:13.840 something where i don't get stuck as often and use my soft skills as opposed to hard skills but during 00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:18.960 this trip i guess for the last few months i've really been feeling like i do want to go back to coding 00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:23.760 at least a little bit and i've been doing a bunch of scripts and proof of concepts and analytics scripts 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:28.560 in the last few years but i really wanted to get back to application code to actually when you write 00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:35.040 something that you can see direct effect of i think one of the things that i did fix the bug yeah you 00:36:35.040 --> 00:36:41.760 fixed the date so if an episode was less than one minute long we wouldn't show the length yeah we just 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:47.520 show an empty place with the border which like didn't sense so i look i looked into the code 00:36:47.520 --> 00:36:54.800 what code is dart right in the app so because it's flutter dart flutter yeah yeah and uh you helped me 00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:01.120 find where it was and then i did those four lines of code i mean with your help and then bingo it was 00:37:01.120 --> 00:37:06.960 fixed and uh that's the kind of things that i want to dip myself a little bit of course i will be able to 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:12.480 i guess maybe not right now maybe eventually uh to write the right the same quality as you do but i 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:18.800 really love that thing where i do something and it changes the experience and uh it makes me feel very 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:25.040 satisfied and also hopefully take some stuff off your plate yeah we definitely need that right as 00:37:25.040 --> 00:37:31.680 we are seeing what we're building i mean so first of all without like you said without the tooling and 00:37:31.680 --> 00:37:38.800 the technology we have right now building something like this even like say 10 years ago by one person 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:44.480 or two people would have been impossible yeah because we are doing a lot of like server side stuff that a 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:50.400 lot of like podcast apps don't do it's almost always client side so they help like with costs and 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:55.360 infrastructure and all that but also like you're limited in how much you can do but yeah i think 00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:01.280 coming back to this um on i think the third day or fourth day feel free to cut this out if you don't 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:07.360 like it but i'll say it honestly on the third day or fourth day you mentioned like you want to get back 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:13.280 like do some more like hands-on stuff and i suggested maybe analytics 00:38:16.160 --> 00:38:20.800 right and you were like you didn't say it immediately but i i got the vibe that okay you're 00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:26.320 not going to be happy with analytics and i was actually personally happy to see you like jump into 00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:34.320 it coincidentally we had a chat with one of our super fans jenny last week and we also came to know 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:39.600 that stitcher one of the popular like android podcast apps is shutting down and she's starting 00:38:39.600 --> 00:38:44.640 to look for a new app and we're like okay we gotta like ship our alpha even if it's half broken 00:38:44.640 --> 00:38:52.960 and a lot of features are not there yet into her hands and so you with my help of course but you 00:38:52.960 --> 00:39:00.080 cranked out the ability for the app to be built on android and like basically on the emulator and all 00:39:00.080 --> 00:39:07.440 that so that was amazing yeah yeah we had a bunch of stuff that we had to troubleshoot for the app to 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:13.120 work on android but none of that stuff was in code it was all in configuration configurations and security 00:39:13.120 --> 00:39:19.280 policies all that stuff but it took us maybe i would say cumulatively maybe half day and that's beauty 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:23.680 of flutter we have the app now for both android and ios actually we should maybe we should talk about 00:39:23.680 --> 00:39:30.560 that we want to get a device for android so we are able to test on android yeah because you and i are 00:39:30.560 --> 00:39:39.360 completely on like apple ecosystem yes entirely you found somebody on one of the marketplaces who was 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:49.120 selling a phone not related to metacast yeah okay yes facebook marketplace right yes so and the guy 00:39:49.120 --> 00:39:53.760 really wanted to meet you in your house for some reason and then what did you do i mean i kept saying 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:59.040 let's meet at a mall and he was offering like his device for 60 dollars right which is most other 00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:03.920 places shops and all are saying okay this is very attractive very attractive but he was very 00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:10.880 particular i can only deliver it at a personal address so i gave him an address which was a walmart 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:15.600 and he said oh this is a walmart i can't meet you there and so eventually we said all right fine we're 00:40:15.600 --> 00:40:21.920 not doing this yeah but i think then we looked at the i guess here's the tip for everybody if you are 00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:26.240 selling something on facebook marketplace it will just show you then i think the name of the person 00:40:26.240 --> 00:40:33.120 probably even the first name and also just their small very very small avatar but if you make five 00:40:33.120 --> 00:40:42.640 clicks and go to their profile you may discover some very interesting things about the person like we did 00:40:42.640 --> 00:40:49.520 yeah i think we will not share what exactly we discovered but uh it would not be a good idea to 00:40:49.520 --> 00:40:57.280 meet this person in person even at walmart i guess yeah yeah yeah it was definitely not a very good fit 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:01.760 but sometimes like if i was selling something previously when we were moving i would go to the 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:07.360 profile see that this person has an account since 2008 and they have pictures with their kids like 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:13.360 five years ago that's legit you can trust them but if somebody is like oh everything is locked and there 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:21.200 are some sketchy things well 40 bucks that you save it's not worth it right i am now connected with one 00:41:21.200 --> 00:41:27.600 more person who looks way more legit on facebook and has like pictures and stuff who knows it's fake 00:41:27.600 --> 00:41:33.440 who knows right but and he is not offering like the phone for like 60 dollars also it looks like a decent 00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:41.760 thing i'll meet on friday and come back and talk about it hopefully yeah and and we will see if this 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:47.680 whole flutter thing actually works as expected because right now it runs in the emulator on the computer 00:41:47.680 --> 00:41:53.200 so let's see if we can just deploy it to that device that you is the samsung or is it pixel it's a 00:41:53.200 --> 00:42:00.880 samsung galaxy a 52 yeah so let's see if if it works in that mambo jumbo of numbers it's better right 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:10.960 so a bit too uh too much apple fan right now yeah yeah the other thing that i kind of thought about 00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:19.600 is there should be a marketplace for broken phones i would be perfectly happy with a let's say last year's 00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:25.440 android some phone but the camera is broken like completely not working it doesn't matter to us 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:31.120 but the device the screen works like i can use the browser and apps and all but the camera is completely 00:42:31.120 --> 00:42:37.840 broken so it's completely useless to anybody almost anybody for like day-to-day use but works 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:43.040 perfectly for testing as long as you don't need the camera yeah i would pay like 100 to get that phone 00:42:43.040 --> 00:42:49.920 versus like paying 250 to get that same device which most places will sell for right not even new like 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:56.480 used ones because it's last year's phone and all the marketplaces i looked at i asked chat gpt about 00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:05.920 it too and chat gpt pointed me at like ebay swappa gazelle amazon everything it kind of makes sense 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:12.480 they're giving you a guarantee that the phone works which i don't want i want like broken phone but 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:17.760 cheaper so i think it would be nice to have a marketplace like that if somebody is listening 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:22.880 into it maybe do some market study let's go on our last tangent because you mentioned chat gpt 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:30.880 when i was posting doing promotion for one of our videos for one of our episodes oh the linkedin one i 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:36.640 copy pasted uh it was i think most of you talking about how the social persona makes you a different 00:43:36.640 --> 00:43:42.240 person right how you like start to look for things to shoot so that you can post them so you basically 00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:47.120 start to look at the world through the lens of uh will other people on social media like it will get 00:43:47.120 --> 00:43:52.720 engagement everything that you do yeah so i copy pasted that transcript and paste it to chat gpt 00:43:52.720 --> 00:44:01.360 and i asked it to summarize it in a share worthy linkedin post chat gpt came out with a five or six 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:06.880 paragraph blob i don't really want to use the word text for this it says blob of content that has a 00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:13.360 bunch of emojis pretty much like multiple emojis per line to be fair it is like a lot of linkedin 00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:19.200 posts that you see i'm probably not subscribed to any people who post like this and i kind of unsubscribe 00:44:19.200 --> 00:44:22.720 immediately when i see this kind of stuff but i think linkedin lunatics probably has a bunch of 00:44:22.720 --> 00:44:28.960 stuff like that no no i'll share some with you right after this like today you you commented on it too 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:35.680 you may not feel like that because you know the person but that style of like using the rocket emoji 00:44:35.680 --> 00:44:42.160 and other emojis at the beginning of a paragraph that's a linkedin thing okay so the thing i commented on 00:44:42.160 --> 00:44:51.280 didn't start with hey hashtag linkedin fam was like hey linkedin fam yes and it didn't end with 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:58.240 let's like live our real lives be yourself hashtag inspiration or something and everything in between 00:44:58.240 --> 00:45:03.680 i would say it actually did a very good job summarizing what uh was in the transcript it also added a bunch 00:45:03.680 --> 00:45:08.800 of stuff i didn't ask to add like encouraging people to do what we said what we were talking about 00:45:09.600 --> 00:45:17.600 but it was just so cringy i forced myself to read what it output and um i actually eventually ended 00:45:17.600 --> 00:45:24.960 up posting this but not under not under my name under my fake persona no i said that like i put this in 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:30.880 the chat gpt and uh that's what it gave me actually actually that post i think it actually performed 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:36.880 actually i don't think it performed well i mean linkedin fam didn't like it this whole linkedin fam thing 00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:44.640 um yeah yeah no i think i agree it was too cringy i think here's the whole thing about social media 00:45:44.640 --> 00:45:50.320 right i have known people who say like instagram family or facebook family and stuff like that and 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:54.400 i'm like this is not your family you don't even know who these people are i was listening to a podcast 00:45:54.400 --> 00:46:01.200 today where a person who are going to interview tomorrow for our episode 32 he was saying how like 00:46:01.200 --> 00:46:06.560 up until certain point he had 1500 subscribers on linkedin oh sorry on uh what do you call it twitter 00:46:06.560 --> 00:46:12.240 x but next but most of those people knew him from offline from conferences and talking and all of that 00:46:12.240 --> 00:46:19.360 and at some point he crossed the threshold where all people knew was his twitter persona and then he 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:24.960 realized that actually forgot what the inside was but basically for him you could say that people who knew 00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:30.400 him from another thing you could have called him like a family the early beginning yeah but the people who 00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:35.120 are just like complete random people from twitter you wouldn't call him a family x x family 00:46:35.120 --> 00:46:44.960 demoted to x family yeah it's fine okay anyway so you wanted to go on tangent and i hope your train of 00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:51.200 thought was not derailed again no we are like 56 minutes into our 30 minute recording so let's get into our 00:46:51.200 --> 00:46:58.000 final topic yes i think we'll leave most of the topic for later what you'll say now is i think we 00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:03.040 already said in the last episode but let's do it again is that we have published a book called the 00:47:03.040 --> 00:47:10.400 pragmatic podcaster which is about starting a podcast it goes into how you choose your mic how you set up 00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:14.640 your recording space how you do post production how you create a podcast cover how you choose music 00:47:14.640 --> 00:47:19.440 what kind of licenses exist for for music because this is important legal stuff you don't want to get in 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:24.800 trouble how you choose your hosting provider and how you publish that's what i call a day one part of 00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:29.360 starting your podcast is basically like getting the first episode out getting that mvp out and actually 00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:35.200 use quite a bit of analogies with the lean startup methodology with mvp getting the thing out being 00:47:35.200 --> 00:47:41.120 a bit embarrassed about it that's fine just get it out otherwise you will spend endless weeks and months 00:47:41.120 --> 00:47:47.680 to abandon it and not even ship it right it's also a very concise and like to the point book if you're not 00:47:47.680 --> 00:47:51.920 not even thinking about creating a podcast but just wondering like what does it take to create a 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:58.160 podcast i think if you read skim it you'll get a really good idea of how much work and money is 00:47:58.160 --> 00:48:03.760 involved yeah so if you're looking to start a podcast you can buy it and actually you'll be equipped to 00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:10.320 start a podcast i think it's a really good it's a really good book for this use case but if you are just 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:15.280 interested like you said right in understanding how this whole thing works maybe our podcast inspired you to 00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:20.240 like understand it a little bit more yeah by all means buy it and uh i would say half of the content 00:48:20.240 --> 00:48:24.640 of the book will be interesting in terms of how you actually go about all that because it also applies 00:48:24.640 --> 00:48:30.400 to other types of content and finally even if you are not interested in this at all but you want to 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:36.480 support us then you can still buy the book and do not use the promo code so you can pay the full price 00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:43.600 and support us even more so what is the promo code they should not use uh so the promo code that will 00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:49.920 give you a 30 off is metacast so you just type metacast and gives you 30 off so instead of paying 00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:55.680 15 you pay i think it's 10 50 that's what it comes down to usd usd yeah but if you want to support us 00:48:55.680 --> 00:49:00.480 four and a half dollars more yeah you don't have to use the code but by all means i guess you use the 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:06.880 code you know we don't care if you use it or not but we do believe that this book is is useful i don't 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:11.440 want to use like qualifiers is good i think but i think it is useful it's a book that i wish i had 00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:18.080 when uh i was first starting a couple of years ago and uh nobody wrote it so i did and i think we 00:49:18.080 --> 00:49:24.640 haven't yet put it up on amazon and we'll talk about that in the next episode about why it has 00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:29.200 taken us so long to put it up on amazon stay tuned for the next one of the reasons that we were drinking 00:49:29.200 --> 00:49:35.920 so much in vancouver that's true and had fun but there are other other reasons also we'll get into it 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:41.040 but once we do i think we'll share like announce it and we haven't done any announcements and all that 00:49:41.040 --> 00:49:45.360 it's more like a soft launch right now i feel like it's almost pointless to announce it before we have 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:50.400 it on amazon because even when we were having this discussion with your friends i forgot how the 00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:56.400 topic of the book came up i wasn't promoting it to that group of people but somehow came up and uh 00:49:56.400 --> 00:50:01.520 the first question that the person asked was is it on amazon because it's so so easy to buy it on amazon 00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:06.160 than to like go to gumroad and well it is very easy to buy it on gumroad so by all means go and buy 00:50:06.160 --> 00:50:13.040 it on gumroad but you don't even have to go to gumroad you can go to just where pragmaticpodcaster.com 00:50:13.040 --> 00:50:18.800 and it is the very first thing in the show notes so we will have a separate episode that's dedicated 00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:25.920 specifically to the process of how that book was written to what tools i used what was the process i 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:31.760 have quite a bit of learnings to share and hopefully by the time we will also have published it on amazon 00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:39.360 so i can also share that part of the thing so just a few quick teaser questions for you in this episode 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:45.440 we'll go deeper into the next one how long did it take you to write this book ilia i almost feel 00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:51.360 like if i say how long it took me it will diminish the perception of its quality i was in tiktok today 00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:56.320 i don't know why but i subscribed to a few pretty cool accounts and on that account they were talking 00:50:56.320 --> 00:51:02.000 about charging per hour versus charging for the whole project for a logo this is for a for a designer 00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:08.080 right and uh i will go into the details of the whole thing it was very insightful but the punchline was 00:51:08.080 --> 00:51:14.800 that so if i do things faster and charge you more because i am better and i'm also doing it faster it 00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:21.120 feels less valuable to you as a customer than like paying somebody you know a lower rate but they like 00:51:21.120 --> 00:51:26.800 take longer or something maybe to to some customers yeah yes it was i guess it's one of the objections 00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:32.160 that he handled from the audience it was a clip from training but it made perfect sense so i can say 00:51:32.160 --> 00:51:37.040 that yeah i wrote it in two weeks end to end without formatting it's just just the actual content i was 00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:43.840 amazed by the way but i have to qualify this right because i'm very good at writing and that's why 00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:49.040 it took me such short amount of time because at amazon like when i got my promo to principal and 00:51:49.040 --> 00:51:54.080 all that like everybody commanded my writing and it just comes naturally to me i mean i'm by no means 00:51:54.080 --> 00:51:59.200 like neil gaiman or stephen king or anything i'm actually pretty bad at fiction writing but i wouldn't 00:51:59.200 --> 00:52:04.880 say i'm pretty good i'm too good at um like inspirational writing and all that but if you take some content 00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:10.480 that just goes straight to the point with no fluff but still feels kind of light that's what i'm pretty 00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:16.800 good at to the point i think crisp and clear writing that's your strength it took me much longer to write 00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:22.000 to the first chapters that are about you can do it why like what kind of audience you choose those were 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:26.720 the hardest chapters for me to write but the more technical ones i would just write like pages and 00:52:26.720 --> 00:52:35.600 pages and pages per day pragmatic podcaster.com promo code metacast right and the other other teaser 00:52:35.600 --> 00:52:41.920 question that i'll have is what was my only contribution to the book a photograph oh no no 00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:49.440 yes there is one photograph in there the cover the choice of the cover to be more correct and you did an 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:55.760 amazing like i love the cover that we finally came out with but i do think in the show notes for this 00:52:55.760 --> 00:53:01.920 episode you should put that the hilarious one it looks very similar but we're kind of on the side oh 00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:09.440 no that was for the podcast the startups.com okay no but for this one to be fair i use the canva 00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:14.960 template to come up with the youtube episode covers which we just reformatted that and we're using that 00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:20.400 for the podcast episode covers so if your app is one of the better apps that supports podcast episode 00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:24.480 covers you will see our cover right there if not wait until our app is released and you will see 00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:29.520 that in the better app and we use the same thing for the book cover and i think i was really struggling 00:53:29.520 --> 00:53:36.960 with like where they put our company logo on there and then none of it looked good and i guess except 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:41.680 one and that's the one that you said okay this actually looks better and we went with that it actually 00:53:41.680 --> 00:53:49.280 looks amazing if i'm saying so myself yeah and the episode covers and the podcast like i think we're 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:55.760 going to rebrand everything to use that style it looks so good yes and with that if you liked our 00:53:55.760 --> 00:54:01.120 first behind well not first continued behind the scenes episode but this one was more shameless 00:54:01.120 --> 00:54:06.080 guys because we gave ourselves the license to not talk about descript and all that other stuff 00:54:06.080 --> 00:54:12.720 and actually go about the company stuff for as much as we wanted give us a rating send us an email 00:54:12.720 --> 00:54:19.440 leave a comment yeah all of that no pressure but send us an email i would say if this resonates with 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:25.760 you send us an email at hello at metacastpodcast.com and if you did not listen to our previous episode 00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:32.320 episode 30 with the startups.com founders they go into this story of how they received that email of a 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:38.000 person who was crying while listening to their podcast and how they spoke directly to him 00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:43.200 or her actually i don't know and they said to their partner that this is all the things that i 00:54:43.200 --> 00:54:49.280 couldn't tell you and they just said it for me we cry while listening to our podcast but send us a 00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:55.920 message we try not to make you cry but but if you make a laugh which i hope we do because you know 00:54:55.920 --> 00:55:01.440 when i listen to our episodes i laugh a lot i don't know if it's so self-indulging but and i mean to be 00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:07.760 fair the four or five outreaches that we have had over email they have been beautiful stuff that just 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:15.120 makes your day yeah absolutely hello at metacastpodcast.com you know where to find us all right that was a 00:55:15.120 --> 00:55:22.720 great episode thank you tomorrow we are recording another episode 32 and then next episode we're going to 00:55:22.720 --> 00:55:30.160 talk more in detail about the book itself and some of the technical details of the book too like 00:55:30.160 --> 00:55:36.320 how did you do it how did you get into that mindset and yeah all that it will be basically behind the 00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:42.000 covers of the behind the scenes right behind the spline is called the spline the thing in the back 00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:47.680 yeah yeah yeah behind the spline yeah and tomorrow we are gonna be recording well i am gonna be recording 00:55:47.680 --> 00:55:53.440 in the car in parking lot so i'll have to keep my ac running because it will be crazy hot here 00:55:53.440 --> 00:56:00.000 but i have a very important appointment i can't miss i won't say what it is until i feel comfortable 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:09.520 talking about it it is not a job interview no thank you not a job interview it's not an investor page but it 00:56:09.520 --> 00:56:16.240 is very important uh for me and um we decided not to reschedule the recording but we'll have to go 00:56:16.240 --> 00:56:21.440 through some logistical hurdles tomorrow and we'll see how that comes out and our guest doesn't know 00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:28.080 about it too that you'll be in a car so it'll be fun he doesn't think it's disrespectful but we will 00:56:28.080 --> 00:56:34.640 explain no i think it makes sense so once it's all done we'll let people know what that appointment 00:56:34.640 --> 00:56:46.000 was okay cool all right hello and with that see you next week all right