WEBVTT

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 But you also have to keep the whole mental model of the book in your head.

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 It's like writing software essentially.

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 If you disconnect yourself from it, do something else for a few days,

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 well, good luck getting back into the flow.

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 Or you may be repeating the same thing that you have already written

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 because you've forgotten, because you disconnected from it,

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 or that you may be writing it again in a different part.

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 But you're going too much into detail in this part, yeah.

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 Makes sense. It is like software, yeah.

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 All right. Hello, hello, hello.

00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.920
 Welcome to episode 34 of Metacast.

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 This is the podcast where Ilya and I talk about our journey building a startup.

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 We're building a podcast app.

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 Last episode, episode 33, was part one of our foray into Ilya's book, Pragmatic Podcaster.

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 So we talked about what the book is about.

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 We talked a little bit about the content, where you can buy it and all that.

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 And it was getting too long.

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 So we decided to break it up and talk about his process of writing the book,

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 his experience of going through it, how we are trying to market it,

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 the experience of like configuring ads and all that.

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 We decided to do it in this episode.

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 So here we go, part two.

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 Yeah.

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 And if you're watching this on video, you might have seen that we haven't even changed since

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 the last recording.

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 Because we finished the recording of part one just five minutes ago.

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 We decided it's going to be too long.

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 So we intentionally stopped the recording and then restarted again.

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 It was kind of weird to do the intro just one hour after we did the previous intro.

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 But we are recording this on August 29th, on Tuesday.

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 So yeah, there was a week delay between when we record this and when you're listening to this.

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 So last episode, we talked about the book, what it is about, the content,

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 how we think about things pragmatically.

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 Oh, actually, one thing we forgot to say last time is I borrowed a lot of the conceptual ideas

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 from the Lean Startup methodology as a product, basically doing the MVP and then pragmatically

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 growing it into something better.

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 So anyway, if you haven't listened to the last episode, that's what it was about.

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 Very quickly, where can people get that book and leave a review?

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 Yeah, pragmaticpodcaster.com.

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 Or you can just go straight to Amazon and search for Pragmatic Podcaster right there.

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 And in the beautiful orange cover, you will see that's our book.

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 Right.

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 I love the cover.

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 Actually, you and I were riffing on, and I think you were, you had a few options out there.

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 And this one was like immediately, I love this, right?

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 This is the one that I said, I love this.

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 This is it.

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 Yes.

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 Yeah.

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 And then we just adjusted a few minor details.

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 But otherwise, it's the same cover we came up right away.

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 And it's the same cover we use for our YouTube videos and also the podcast.

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 Right.

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 You also talk about like doing this for a podcast itself, the artwork and all that.

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 So we won't go into all the details.

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 If you want to listen to like how Ilya does the artwork or what tools he uses and all that,

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 it's in the book.

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 How did you like do it?

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 I think we were talking about some time back that it would be nice to do a book like this.

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 Yeah.

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 Our original thought was, let's do an episode about how to start a podcast with the expectation

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 that YouTube will promote it to people more and people will watch it and that will help

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 us get some visibility, some reach.

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 And at the back of my mind, I also had this thought that this episode could be converted

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 into a book.

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 And that's an interesting thing about content creation.

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 You create, let's say, a video and audio episode and then you use the same outline and the

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 same things you talk about to the microphone and write them up in the book in a much more

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 structured form with pictures and all that.

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 So yeah, we recorded episode 25.

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 Yeah, it's been about eight weeks ago, right?

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 So yeah, it's about a couple of months and then gotten to writing from that.

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 I think that episode is one of our top 10 now after like 33 episodes still.

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 It's like number six or seven or something.

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 I think so.

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 Yeah.

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 And I think it's also one of our top episodes on YouTube.

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 But you did distill all that information down into like even more concise, but I think

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 a more engaging fashion into the book.

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 Yeah, I feel like when I watch the YouTube video and I listen to that episode, it's too

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 dense.

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 It's too dense and it's a bit haphazard.

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 Whereas the book, I was much more intentional in terms of the structure and very demanding

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 towards myself to keep it brief.

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 Actually, when I edited the book, I removed more than I added.

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 I probably cut 20% of the content after content being like extra sentences, extra paragraphs

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 that were repeating, you know, themselves.

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 Same thing.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah.

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 And I like the structure of the book in that I don't know if the day zero one two is actually

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 possible for somebody starting brand new.

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 But if you have even a little bit of experience in this area, or you know what kind of podcast

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 you want to create, I think that's a template that could totally work, right?

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 Yeah.

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 Maybe we should talk a little bit about the template.

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 So when we were creating products at Amazon, we use that framework of day zero, day one,

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 day two, meaning that day zero is the things that you do before you even start using the

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 product.

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 So from a user perspective, so you have a problem, you have a need, let's say you need to do accounting

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 for your business or for personal finances.

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 So day zero is like you have a problem, you research solutions, you fiddle with stuff, but

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 you actually haven't started doing anything yet.

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 So from the company creating the accounting software, you target that customer at their

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 day zero to kind of sell them the solution that they have.

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 And then day one is when you started using the software, you are just a total novice.

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 You are still learning the ins and outs.

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 Things are slow.

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 And as a company, as a product developer, you give those users tools for like, you teach

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 them, treat them like a student, like a child and teach them how to like get the basics.

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 And then day two is like, you're comfortable at the core functionality of the product.

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 And you're starting to look at ways to improve your processes, you know, how you use the product.

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 Maybe you start to connect your accounting software to whatever Slack to send you budget

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 notifications, you know, stuff like that, right?

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 Which is more advanced.

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 And that's how we were thinking about user journey at Amazon and in our team.

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 And I approached this the same way for the book.

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 Like day zero is before you even start the podcast, what do you need to think about?

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 You need to think about like why you're doing this, who you're doing this for, what's the

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 name of your podcast?

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 Because you will have to say your name in the first episode, stuff like that.

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 But it's actually very few things that you have to think about.

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 But day one is when things really start.

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 Day one is when you record your first episode, is when you use all of the software, you buy

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 the microphone and all that stuff and you post-produce your first episode.

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 So you have to get through that initial hurdle of publishing the very first episode, which

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 is, I would say, 80% of the things that you need to know to run a podcast.

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 And then day two is how do you take what you've learned and episode two, three, four, five, how

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 do you improve over time?

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 And the whole point there is when you think what many companies don't do well or many book

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 authors don't do well is that they overload you with content, with information right away.

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 So it's like, oh, we don't know if you're just getting started or if you're just researching.

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 Here's how you can send budget notifications to Slack.

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 The AWS experience you mean.

00:07:59.540 --> 00:07:59.820
 Yeah.

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 Yeah, exactly.

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 Throw you into the deep end.

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 Like, here's all the APIs, everything you need to know.

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 Go figure it out.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah.

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 It's like, here's a token to send budget things to Slack.

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 And you're like, I don't know what the budget is.

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 So yeah, that's what I try to do.

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 Like, what is the absolute minimum things you need to know progressively and in what order

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 so that you ramp up to become a proficient podcaster?

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 So you wrote the framework or the template first, right?

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 Like, here's how I'm going to structure the book.

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 And then you went into it.

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 I remember back from those days when you were writing it that the first few days you said,

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 oh, I'm like struggling through it, right?

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 Like, like I spent the whole day.

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 Like, I think once you told me you spent the whole day in a coffee shop or at least a few

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 hours and came out with like after editing half a page or something like that.

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 Towards the end, you were like, I did the last three chapters yesterday or you were in

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 like a total flow, right?

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 So how did that process go?

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 Yeah.

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 So I started with that outline that we've created for the podcast.

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 Then I restructured it, split the topics into day one, day two, day zero framework.

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 And then I started writing.

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 I'm like, it doesn't sound right.

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 So basically what I was doing a lot in the first few days is as I was writing, I was actually

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 restructuring the table of contents too.

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 And I think, I don't know if I would be able to work with a publisher because I think what

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 publishers do, they require you to create a table of contents and then you just like

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 fill in the blanks.

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 I sort of did it in parallel.

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 You followed the lean startup model of developing a product versus the waterfall model of here's

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 what you're going to write about, go write it now.

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 Exactly.

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 Yes.

00:09:49.660 --> 00:09:49.880
 Yeah.

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 I was very agile in this regard.

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 So, but at some point it became very clear what the table of contents is.

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 But the reason I struggled in the very beginning was that the first few chapters were like the

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 introduction and some motivational stuff, some inspiring stuff, which I couldn't quite find

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 words for that.

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 Because what I'm good at is not necessarily technical writing, but like writing about like

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 the facts.

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 The hard technical parts, but writing it in an easy to understand way and you excel in that.

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 Explaining things.

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 I guess I'm good at explaining things, like breaking things down into like stuff that anybody

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 can easily understand.

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 But something like an introduction, it doesn't yield itself to being like a framework kind

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 of thing.

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 It has to be a story.

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 And I had some stories in mind.

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 Actually, I forgot what the story was that I wanted to.

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 I think it was a story about cooking a meal that I started to write about how you like cook

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 it and how it becomes a podcast.

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 And I read it and it was just so lame.

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 Actually, I wish I saved it.

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 Maybe somewhere in the version of history, maybe I can still recover it.

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 But it was very lame.

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 So I had to like scratch it all, start over.

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 Because I wanted to actually make it a thread of the entire book.

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 But then I just realized it's just too ridiculous.

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 It doesn't work.

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 At least it's not how I speak about things.

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 But at some point, I really focused on the problem of a hypothetical aspiring podcaster.

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 And like you were saying, you don't know where to start, right?

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 There's just so much stuff.

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 And like breaking down that stuff into digestible chunks right away and inspiring that confidence

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 that you can master all of that.

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 And I'll help you do that.

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 And that's how I approached that.

00:11:37.780 --> 00:11:39.740
 And then after that, things started to flow.

00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:46.520
 So I was also reading the book by Patrick Winston called Make It Clear, which is an amazing book.

00:11:46.520 --> 00:11:49.380
 It's about communicating thoughts clearly.

00:11:49.380 --> 00:11:53.060
 If you don't want to buy the book, which I think it's a pretty expensive book, actually,

00:11:53.060 --> 00:11:55.000
 you can watch his video.

00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:57.560
 I think it's called How to Speak on YouTube.

00:11:57.560 --> 00:11:58.900
 It's one of his MIT lectures.

00:11:58.900 --> 00:11:59.380
 Okay.

00:11:59.380 --> 00:12:01.400
 We should link to it in the show notes.

00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:02.180
 Yeah.

00:12:02.180 --> 00:12:03.920
 He unfortunately passed away, I think, about 10 years ago.

00:12:03.920 --> 00:12:06.600
 But that video is an amazing video.

00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:12.000
 So I used a lot of his recommendations while writing the book, which hopefully, I mean,

00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:15.440
 you already said multiple times, it was clear and great, so people should buy it.

00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:21.580
 I thought the part that you struggled with the most, I really enjoyed that a lot, right?

00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:22.540
 Which is the beginning.

00:12:22.540 --> 00:12:23.460
 Okay.

00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:24.880
 So it was worth the struggle.

00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:26.260
 It was worth the struggle.

00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:32.080
 And I think what I really liked, I've said this multiple times already in the previous episode,

00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.120
 the quotes that you pulled in.

00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:37.940
 Now, again, you and I, we know each other for a while.

00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:42.080
 So it might be because of that, but it resonated with me quite a lot.

00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:42.700
 So yeah.

00:12:42.700 --> 00:12:43.620
 Yeah.

00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:44.140
 Okay.

00:12:44.140 --> 00:12:46.500
 Did you use ChatGPT?

00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:47.220
 No.

00:12:47.560 --> 00:12:53.360
 So every time I try to use ChatGPT, I just absolutely despise what it outputs in terms

00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.740
 of like actual way of expressing thoughts.

00:12:56.740 --> 00:13:00.940
 The voice and tone of ChatGPT is, it can't mimic me.

00:13:00.940 --> 00:13:05.200
 I'm not famous enough as Corey Quinn so that I can tell it to write in my voice and tone.

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 So whatever voice and tone it outputs is not my voice and tone.

00:13:08.420 --> 00:13:14.220
 It's very social media-y, if I could explain it in some way.

00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:15.980
 Very Gen Z-ish.

00:13:15.980 --> 00:13:17.760
 Yeah.

00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:24.360
 I think what it really excels on and what I use it for is I have some rough thoughts and

00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:29.240
 I say, hey, I want to write about this and I give it like three, four bullet points.

00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:30.480
 Come up with something.

00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:36.600
 It comes up with something, I hate it, but I have the structure of like where to put what

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 and all that.

00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:42.960
 Then I write it myself and then I say, here's what I wrote, like copy edited.

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 And then it says, oh, you did a great job covering all these points.

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 Here's what I would recommend and comes up with something.

00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:52.060
 And then I hate it again, but much less than the previous one.

00:13:52.060 --> 00:13:55.720
 Then I do like a final edit of it and post it.

00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:56.640
 What do you use it for?

00:13:56.640 --> 00:14:01.540
 Let's say I'm writing about a LinkedIn post, for example, right?

00:14:01.540 --> 00:14:04.540
 About whatever it is that I'm thinking about.

00:14:04.540 --> 00:14:05.360
 Okay.

00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:11.020
 So in this process, what were some of the big learnings for you?

00:14:11.020 --> 00:14:11.740
 Yeah.

00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:19.580
 So one thing that was very unexpected is that I could hardly focus on anything else while

00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:24.060
 writing because I was thinking about it all the time.

00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:31.300
 I just got so obsessed about, so immersed in the structure because unlike, let's say, social

00:14:31.300 --> 00:14:34.620
 media posts, social media posts is self-contained few paragraphs.

00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:37.540
 Maybe max 30 minutes of thinking about it.

00:14:37.540 --> 00:14:37.720
 Yeah.

00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:38.580
 Yeah.

00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:42.080
 But I mean, even if you spend the whole day thinking about it, once you wrote it, you're

00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:42.340
 done.

00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:45.120
 You don't write a social media post for two weeks.

00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:51.340
 And this one ended up being, I think, 148 pages of pure text, like the Kindle version

00:14:51.340 --> 00:14:52.000
 or PDF version.

00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.140
 That's a lot.

00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:56.580
 And it has to flow in a coherent narrative.

00:14:56.580 --> 00:14:59.840
 And as I was editing the book, I proofread it twice.

00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:05.600
 I found things where, let's say, I mentioned something before it's time or when I restructure

00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:11.160
 chapters and then things get out of context a bit and you have to edit this.

00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.140
 It's very difficult.

00:15:14.140 --> 00:15:15.380
 It's a lot of work.

00:15:15.380 --> 00:15:19.220
 It's a lot of work, but you also have to keep the whole mental model of the book in your

00:15:19.220 --> 00:15:19.560
 head.

00:15:19.560 --> 00:15:21.240
 It's like writing software, essentially.

00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:25.360
 If you disconnect yourself from it, do something else for a few days, well, good luck getting

00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:26.220
 back into the flow.

00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:31.740
 Or you may be repeating the same thing that you have already written because you've forgotten

00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:37.160
 because you're disconnected from it or that you may be writing it again in a different

00:15:37.160 --> 00:15:40.780
 part, but you're like going too much into detail in this part.

00:15:40.780 --> 00:15:41.000
 Yeah.

00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:41.600
 Makes sense.

00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:42.600
 It is like software.

00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:43.740
 Also, it's very intense.

00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:46.100
 It's not like you can just sit down and write for eight hours.

00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:47.360
 You just can't.

00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:54.100
 I mean, maybe some people can, but I came across a short clip of a Stephen King interview where

00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:58.560
 the host was asking him, how is he able to write so much?

00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:02.180
 He has so many books because he has, I don't know how many books, 50 probably.

00:16:02.180 --> 00:16:08.200
 And he said that he writes consistently for three to five hours every day.

00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:12.440
 And no matter how much he can accomplish, he just sits down and writes.

00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:14.720
 And I think this is a great advice.

00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.100
 You just get into this and you get into the flow.

00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:21.880
 But I think once you miss a day, then you're screwed because you have to get back to the

00:16:21.880 --> 00:16:22.700
 same flow.

00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:26.940
 I think his stuff arguably is even more complicated because he does world building.

00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:28.400
 Character development.

00:16:28.400 --> 00:16:29.420
 Character development.

00:16:29.420 --> 00:16:29.780
 Yeah.

00:16:29.780 --> 00:16:30.360
 All of that.

00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:31.300
 But yeah.

00:16:31.300 --> 00:16:32.420
 So that, that was hard.

00:16:32.420 --> 00:16:34.380
 Where did you do the writing?

00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:40.660
 I started working in my home, but I was not able to do any work at my usual desk.

00:16:40.660 --> 00:16:46.060
 I somehow needed a different place outside of my work desk.

00:16:46.060 --> 00:16:49.000
 So I mostly wrote on the couch.

00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.840
 But what I noticed after a while is because I was holding my laptop on my knees.

00:16:54.400 --> 00:16:58.760
 And when you type a lot, there's a lot of these micro movements of the laptop.

00:16:58.760 --> 00:17:03.360
 And my eyes start to hurt after a while because you concentrate on the text.

00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:05.740
 It's like a white background, you know, black text.

00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:09.920
 And like those micro movements, they made me sort of almost sick.

00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.240
 Then I started writing on dinner table.

00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:17.460
 And after a while that became almost like my desk.

00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:18.800
 I couldn't write there anymore.

00:17:18.800 --> 00:17:22.600
 I started going to the coffee shop and in the coffee shop, you can change tables.

00:17:22.600 --> 00:17:26.440
 Like one day I see that one table, the other day I see that another table, like sitting

00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:26.780
 outside.

00:17:26.780 --> 00:17:32.700
 So I think some of that change of scenery really helped me be more productive for some reason.

00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:33.080
 Right.

00:17:33.080 --> 00:17:36.040
 I feel the, pretty much the same.

00:17:36.040 --> 00:17:43.240
 So when I am in a relaxed kind of work, kind of mood that I know this is the plan for my

00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:48.340
 day, I want to build this, or I want to fix this, or all of these things, I feel like I'm

00:17:48.340 --> 00:17:52.940
 most productive in a space like a coffee shop, not at my desk.

00:17:52.940 --> 00:17:57.600
 And there are some like, I think, physical causes for that.

00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:59.760
 Also like the temperature and all that.

00:17:59.760 --> 00:18:00.560
 I'm in the basement.

00:18:00.560 --> 00:18:05.580
 It's usually colder here because if I warm this up, the upstairs like bedroom becomes like

00:18:05.580 --> 00:18:06.140
 super hot.

00:18:06.140 --> 00:18:07.940
 And I don't like that.

00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:12.560
 I like to keep the bedroom at a more comfortable, which means this place is a bit colder.

00:18:12.800 --> 00:18:17.680
 So I kind of like wrap my feet or something like that without thinking about it.

00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:19.640
 And I don't like it.

00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:20.980
 Those are the physical things.

00:18:20.980 --> 00:18:26.460
 But the environment itself, for some reason, when I go into a coffee shop and I put my headphones

00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:29.320
 on, everything else just blurs.

00:18:29.320 --> 00:18:29.740
 Right.

00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:33.420
 There are people there, but I just forget about them.

00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:36.620
 I think after a point and I get into a really good zone.

00:18:36.620 --> 00:18:41.180
 The contradiction to this is when I'm under pressure.

00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:46.780
 Like the last three, four days before we took the one week break, right?

00:18:46.780 --> 00:18:53.280
 Where we were basically going to launch the beta and we had some problems with the background

00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:54.580
 app crashing and all that.

00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:56.320
 And I was trying to figure out what's going on.

00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:58.680
 That it didn't matter where I was.

00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.580
 I worked here on this desk.

00:19:00.580 --> 00:19:05.200
 I worked on the bed and I was like super productive everywhere.

00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.820
 But that's not my like regular norm.

00:19:07.820 --> 00:19:13.840
 And I think maybe that's what you're saying too, that when you're in that relaxed, calm kind

00:19:13.840 --> 00:19:19.120
 of work mindset, a place like a coffee shop or somewhere like that, it helps you more.

00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:20.040
 Yeah.

00:19:20.040 --> 00:19:27.280
 I also feel like when you write something, it's a very creative endeavor and it's very

00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:28.720
 hard to do it when you are stressed.

00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.760
 So it's not like you can just push yourself to write more.

00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:36.280
 Well, I guess you can, but it's not going to be any good for most of us.

00:19:36.280 --> 00:19:37.060
 Not for me, obviously.

00:19:37.060 --> 00:19:42.440
 Whereas if you do some more technical work, I mean, some of it is obviously creative, but

00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:45.120
 some of it is just pure debugging and troubleshooting.

00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:49.260
 I don't want to diminish them, but I feel those differently too.

00:19:49.260 --> 00:19:53.580
 Like when I'm super stressed and I know that I need something to get done, I just do it.

00:19:53.580 --> 00:19:57.260
 And, but I wouldn't be able to write much under those conditions.

00:19:57.260 --> 00:20:01.760
 And you won't be able to sustain that for like more than a few days, I think.

00:20:01.760 --> 00:20:03.580
 No, no, no.

00:20:03.580 --> 00:20:05.900
 And I think you are going to talk about it too.

00:20:05.900 --> 00:20:08.140
 I see it in the notes, but walks.

00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:10.760
 And I think it's more than the walk.

00:20:10.820 --> 00:20:15.840
 It's the rubber duck effect that helps me quite a lot when I'm writing software, right?

00:20:15.840 --> 00:20:20.380
 Like when you're deep in something and you can't figure out what's going on and you're

00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:23.260
 like, you've tried everything, all sorts of debugging, nothing works.

00:20:23.260 --> 00:20:26.020
 Take everything out, go for a walk.

00:20:26.020 --> 00:20:32.640
 And I think you will probably have much more clarity thing from a different perspective or

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.200
 a different higher level about the problem.

00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.880
 And you'll probably come up with something else at that time.

00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:38.620
 Yeah.

00:20:38.620 --> 00:20:45.820
 I have a difficult relationship to walks because on one hand, just like you are saying, right?

00:20:45.820 --> 00:20:53.120
 They help get out of whatever the mental state when you're stuck or maybe not creative enough.

00:20:53.120 --> 00:20:58.060
 But at the same time, let's say if I know I need to do something and I go out for a walk,

00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:03.140
 I feel stressed for not sitting down and working and going for a walk instead.

00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:04.700
 And I don't have a dog.

00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:07.780
 So it's not like I'm forced to go for a walk, right?

00:21:07.780 --> 00:21:11.680
 It's a conscious act of just like going out and doing nothing.

00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.540
 You feel like you're wasting time.

00:21:14.540 --> 00:21:15.380
 I feel guilt.

00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:16.400
 Okay.

00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.000
 And I know it's not healthy.

00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:19.820
 I know it's not good.

00:21:19.820 --> 00:21:25.980
 That's why I mostly walk very late at night when I'm already done with work.

00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:26.420
 Yeah.

00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:34.480
 And I think maybe our CDO helps me in more ways than I realize because it is, if you think

00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:40.060
 about it, you have to go on at least two, three walks, at least two usually per day, right?

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:45.720
 But I do get a lot of clarity while doing these walks.

00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:51.300
 And sometimes I'm listening to a podcast and I'm learning something or getting some information.

00:21:51.300 --> 00:21:57.240
 But sometimes I just put on some like ambient music sort of thing and think about, especially

00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:03.260
 if I'm, if I have been working very hard on a problem and I'm not making progress or something

00:22:03.260 --> 00:22:08.160
 like that, that's when I feel like, okay, let me just put on some ambient chill music, some

00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:13.280
 music that I know really well already so that my mind is not distracted by the music.

00:22:13.280 --> 00:22:18.420
 And then I go on a walk and I usually come back with like, okay, yeah, there's a completely

00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:19.800
 different way to solve this.

00:22:19.800 --> 00:22:20.100
 Yeah.

00:22:20.100 --> 00:22:21.240
 I'm totally with you.

00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:26.320
 More recently, what I started doing is when I go for a walk, usually it's like 10 or 11

00:22:26.320 --> 00:22:27.040
 PM at night.

00:22:27.040 --> 00:22:32.380
 I leave my phone at home and basically the only electronics I have with me is my Apple watch

00:22:32.380 --> 00:22:35.360
 where I track how much I walked and all.

00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:40.320
 So I either go for a run and then walk a little bit, or I just walk.

00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:45.180
 And a couple of days ago, I walked for six kilometers, which is about four miles.

00:22:45.180 --> 00:22:47.140
 And yeah, I didn't listen to anything.

00:22:47.140 --> 00:22:48.240
 You know, I didn't have the phone.

00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:54.720
 Like there was nothing to, there was no external noise coming into my head and sort of had to

00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:57.720
 process all of the noise that there was already inside.

00:22:58.280 --> 00:22:59.980
 So I had this random thoughts.

00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:02.360
 It was just like a stream of randomness.

00:23:02.360 --> 00:23:06.220
 I just let it be like, I almost sort of meditated while I walked.

00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:06.480
 Right.

00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:11.420
 But then at some point, all that noise started to go away and I started to get a lot of kind

00:23:11.420 --> 00:23:13.000
 of insights and some thoughts.

00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:18.280
 And actually I was about to go home, but then I walked for another 20 minutes and I just had

00:23:18.280 --> 00:23:21.240
 this stream of cool ideas and thoughts and all that.

00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:26.040
 I had to record them into my voice notes on the Apple watch.

00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:28.660
 Otherwise I would just forget about that.

00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:31.240
 Actually, that's a great point.

00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:37.060
 I usually take notes on the notes app, but I dictate them when I'm like walking.

00:23:37.060 --> 00:23:39.820
 Maybe voice notes would work equally well.

00:23:39.820 --> 00:23:44.380
 I don't know if it works, if the transcription works without the phone nearby.

00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:50.360
 I don't usually, I mean, the quality of that note is so bad that I can't like copy paste

00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:51.060
 it anyway.

00:23:51.060 --> 00:23:51.620
 Right.

00:23:51.620 --> 00:23:55.660
 So I read it back and then I rewrite it or rephrase it anyway.

00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:58.380
 It's just more like, here's a thought.

00:23:58.380 --> 00:23:59.820
 I don't want to forget about this.

00:23:59.820 --> 00:24:03.280
 This is a really interesting thing that I want to talk about.

00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:04.380
 So tools.

00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:11.960
 And I think this is also for creative endeavors, the tools that you use, even in software, right?

00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:18.220
 Like if you ask me to do this in a different tool than the one that I love, I would struggle

00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:23.480
 a lot and I would be less productive and I'll be distracted by the tool itself quite a lot.

00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:25.140
 I know you have a favorite.

00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:28.380
 What was the experience of writing a book in that?

00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:34.840
 I just use Google Docs because I wanted to write in a way that will be easily exportable

00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:37.260
 to PDF without any extra work.

00:24:37.260 --> 00:24:46.560
 So I initially set up the fonts and all of the header styles and all that because I actually

00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:48.340
 learned this from Neil Gaiman's masterclass.

00:24:48.340 --> 00:24:53.620
 He was talking about comics and how the placement of the frame is very important.

00:24:53.620 --> 00:24:55.180
 Like which page of the frame is on.

00:24:55.180 --> 00:24:56.840
 Is it on the left or is it on the right?

00:24:57.160 --> 00:24:59.300
 Like do you have to like flip the page to see the next frame?

00:24:59.300 --> 00:25:01.080
 Because it becomes part of the story.

00:25:01.080 --> 00:25:05.560
 Like basically like the positioning on the page is part of how you unfold the narrative.

00:25:05.560 --> 00:25:10.520
 Obviously it's not as sophisticated in my book, but like I didn't want to have like half

00:25:10.520 --> 00:25:14.360
 a paragraph on kind of hanging over to the next page.

00:25:14.360 --> 00:25:18.600
 So I'm like, I'm figuring out, okay, so this chapter is going to be two pages.

00:25:18.600 --> 00:25:22.200
 So I try to keep it to two pages in that formatting.

00:25:22.620 --> 00:25:25.460
 So again, you know, I use the agile process here.

00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:30.400
 I won't be surprised if many people will tell you just write whatever and then figure out

00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:31.060
 the formatting later.

00:25:31.060 --> 00:25:32.200
 Formatting is not important.

00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:35.340
 It just doesn't work for me this way because then I have to edit more afterwards.

00:25:35.340 --> 00:25:37.560
 So I would rather do it in the right formatting right away.

00:25:37.560 --> 00:25:38.800
 And then I don't have to edit so much.

00:25:39.380 --> 00:25:40.260
 So I use Google Docs.

00:25:40.260 --> 00:25:45.180
 I know the Pragmatic Programmer book was written in Markdown and then somehow processed

00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:47.180
 from Markdown into a book.

00:25:47.180 --> 00:25:48.400
 That was very interesting.

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.140
 But I'm like, okay, so I don't want to learn any new tools.

00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:54.620
 So I'll just stick with whatever I want.

00:25:54.620 --> 00:25:58.600
 And then I used Kindle Create, which is a...

00:25:58.600 --> 00:25:59.020
 Piece of shit.

00:25:59.020 --> 00:26:00.200
 Piece of shit.

00:26:00.600 --> 00:26:04.220
 I remember you struggling to do it for like three, four days.

00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:12.720
 So there's a piece of software called Kindle Create by Amazon, which is a Java app for desktop.

00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:16.820
 Terrible user experience where you import your Word file.

00:26:16.820 --> 00:26:21.900
 I had to export Google Doc as a Microsoft Word doc X extension file.

00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:24.180
 Import it into Kindle Create.

00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:28.100
 It messed up a lot of bullet points and headers.

00:26:28.100 --> 00:26:34.080
 So I had to go through the entire thing and sort of reformat parts of the document.

00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:36.660
 And then it gives you the preview for Kindle.

00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:44.700
 And one of the things that was absolutely infuriating is it wouldn't get the padding on bullet lists right.

00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:50.360
 So you have to type X number of spaces to make it look right, as if you're using a typewriter.

00:26:50.360 --> 00:26:52.020
 I did not like that part.

00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:55.680
 But it took me maybe a couple of days, maybe two or three days to get it right in Kindle Create.

00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:56.900
 But it was a struggle.

00:26:56.900 --> 00:27:03.380
 What I really find even more crazy about this is I asked you, right?

00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:05.900
 Like you're struggling through it quite a lot, right?

00:27:05.900 --> 00:27:09.220
 Creating this Kindle specific version.

00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:18.420
 If you make major edits or even minor edits to the original, like your canonical book in Google Docs,

00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:20.600
 are you going to have to redo all of this?

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.380
 Because you can't import like one chapter or anything like that.

00:27:24.380 --> 00:27:25.640
 You have to import the whole thing.

00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.160
 Okay, you can copy-paste a chapter or copy-paste a word.

00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:32.980
 Actually, I made a few type of corrections, so I had to make it into places, which was a nightmare.

00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:35.960
 Because you forget about those the next day.

00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:39.380
 Anytime you have to do the next edition, I'll have to do it again.

00:27:39.540 --> 00:27:46.040
 Maybe you can find somebody and pay them for doing this because that was not an easy task.

00:27:46.040 --> 00:27:48.400
 It was too mundane.

00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:54.600
 But the thing is, like, if you export EPUB from Google Docs, it is a piece of crap.

00:27:54.600 --> 00:27:57.260
 It is just like absolutely not usable.

00:27:57.260 --> 00:28:03.360
 So you have to use some software that actually formats it specifically for EPUB, for eBooks.

00:28:03.360 --> 00:28:09.080
 And actually, even that EPUB that I created in Kindle Create, it looks perfect in the Kindle edition.

00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:10.520
 I mean, on the Kindle device.

00:28:10.520 --> 00:28:14.400
 But when they open it in Apple Books, it looks okay.

00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.640
 It's like a B+.

00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:20.580
 When you use it on Kindle, all of those indents and all that stuff, Kindle corrects it all for you.

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:33.100
 But the most interesting piece of software actually I used in this whole process is Adobe InDesign that I used for formatting the paper book, which was, I was, wow, this is an amazing piece of software.

00:28:33.100 --> 00:28:37.460
 I think it costs something like 20 bucks, 30 bucks a month for a subscription.

00:28:37.460 --> 00:28:39.140
 But there's a seven-day trial.

00:28:39.140 --> 00:28:41.560
 And I actually did it in six and a half hours.

00:28:41.560 --> 00:28:45.300
 Maybe did a few more, like, edits the next day.

00:28:45.300 --> 00:28:47.760
 But overall, I didn't have to pay for it at all.

00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:50.300
 By the way, Kindle Create is also a free piece of software.

00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.900
 But, yeah, Adobe InDesign, you have to pay for it, but I just canceled the trial and I didn't have to pay for it.

00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:59.480
 So that's a tool that publishers use to format books and magazines and all that.

00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:02.320
 And, oh, my God, it is powerful.

00:29:02.320 --> 00:29:06.220
 I imported that same, I think it was either DocX or PDF.

00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:07.300
 I don't remember which one it was.

00:29:07.300 --> 00:29:08.160
 I think it was DocX.

00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.960
 A few things got kind of out of whack a little bit.

00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.520
 It had to do a bit of edits, like with images and stuff.

00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:18.540
 It took me maybe a couple of hours of watching YouTube videos to figure out how to do certain things.

00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:23.320
 Interface, like images, like there are some concepts that were not familiar to me that I need to learn.

00:29:23.820 --> 00:29:35.040
 The reason why I couldn't do it in Google Docs is that when you print a book, the margins, for example, the inner margin needs to be more than the outer margin.

00:29:35.420 --> 00:29:38.560
 Because that inner margin goes into the spine of the book.

00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:43.200
 So if you leave too little of a margin, you can't read there.

00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:49.840
 And the thing is, like if you look at the document in Google Docs or Microsoft Word, you just have one page at a time.

00:29:49.840 --> 00:29:53.640
 But if you look at the book, you have two pages.

00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.900
 You look at two pages at the same time, right?

00:29:56.060 --> 00:30:02.440
 Which means that the inner margin is on the right side for the left page and on the left side for the right page.

00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:06.040
 So you have to have this alternating margins, right?

00:30:06.040 --> 00:30:07.980
 It's just not possible in Google Docs.

00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:12.280
 And that would change the flow of the paragraphs and all that completely.

00:30:12.280 --> 00:30:12.640
 Yeah.

00:30:12.740 --> 00:30:13.080
 Exactly.

00:30:13.080 --> 00:30:20.960
 And you cannot export what I did in InDesign to PDF because it would be like out of whack because those margins are not correct, right?

00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:27.960
 So it's a tool meant for like paper or like physical book production.

00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:28.580
 Yeah.

00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:31.180
 Physical books, magazines, booklets.

00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:34.200
 I guess just like any Adobe tools, very powerful.

00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.880
 What I was very positively surprised with is, I don't know if you used Photoshop.

00:30:39.580 --> 00:30:46.180
 I used Photoshop version 5, I think was the first version I used before the Creative Suite and all that back in the late 90s.

00:30:46.180 --> 00:30:47.960
 Maybe even Photoshop version 4.

00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:50.900
 You know that arrow tool to select items?

00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:53.100
 It had a keyboard shortcut V.

00:30:53.100 --> 00:30:56.980
 It is still a keyboard shortcut V even in the other tool.

00:30:56.980 --> 00:31:03.160
 So it's like their user interface is very consistent across the tool suite and across decades at this point.

00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:03.940
 Right.

00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:05.980
 I mean, you can't change something like that.

00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:07.860
 If you change, there's going to be a revolution.

00:31:07.860 --> 00:31:08.620
 Right.

00:31:09.580 --> 00:31:10.020
 Yes.

00:31:10.020 --> 00:31:13.040
 But yeah, so Adobe InDesign, great tool.

00:31:13.040 --> 00:31:15.360
 I did it all like in one day.

00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:17.180
 Learned a lot.

00:31:17.180 --> 00:31:20.100
 And I know next time I need to do something like that.

00:31:20.100 --> 00:31:24.120
 I mean, I'll happily pay them 30 bucks a month to just finish this.

00:31:24.120 --> 00:31:28.720
 But I also came to appreciate so much about book design in general.

00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:31.600
 I also had to use a separate tool for cover design.

00:31:32.320 --> 00:31:40.400
 The cover designs were tricky because for Kindle, you have to have a certain ratios between width and height.

00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:44.860
 And you know that the first time I got it done, I messed up.

00:31:44.860 --> 00:31:50.640
 I used the same formatting I used for the PDF version, but the page size was different.

00:31:50.800 --> 00:31:52.420
 So it kind of looked weird on Kindle.

00:31:52.420 --> 00:31:53.580
 So I had to redo it again.

00:31:53.580 --> 00:31:54.280
 Right.

00:31:54.280 --> 00:31:56.580
 It looks smaller than other books on Kindle.

00:31:56.580 --> 00:31:57.660
 Yes, exactly.

00:31:57.660 --> 00:31:59.300
 So I had to re-upload a new one.

00:31:59.300 --> 00:32:08.400
 And for the paper book, you have to do basically like the whole thing with the front cover, back cover, and the spine as a single image.

00:32:08.540 --> 00:32:12.820
 Where you have like the cover on the right, you know, the backside on the left, and the spine in the middle.

00:32:12.820 --> 00:32:17.540
 And they give you the template because when you print the book, there is a thing called bleed.

00:32:17.540 --> 00:32:20.220
 You don't know where exactly the cut of the page will be.

00:32:20.220 --> 00:32:28.920
 So you have to make sure that a couple of millimeters on each side are a safe area that you can just lose if it's printed a certain way.

00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.360
 You have to think about all of that when you do that.

00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:35.620
 Actually, I used a free version of Canva because there was nothing in the paid version that would help me there.

00:32:35.620 --> 00:32:37.400
 So I didn't even have to pay for Canva for that.

00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:46.680
 So yeah, that was very easy, just tedious because I had to do like different for hardcover paperback, PDF, and EPUB.

00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:49.580
 There are four different versions of the book I had to do for that.

00:32:49.580 --> 00:32:52.840
 So what was the publishing experience, right?

00:32:52.840 --> 00:32:56.180
 How did you choose to go with like Gumroad and yeah?

00:32:56.180 --> 00:33:02.820
 Yeah, so Gumroad is the website, the platform where anybody can publish any digital product.

00:33:02.820 --> 00:33:07.820
 People do courses, they sell PDF, they sell checklists, you know, video stuff.

00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.380
 Any kind of content like that.

00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:13.040
 That's the only one I really knew.

00:33:13.040 --> 00:33:17.140
 I looked at alternatives and like none of them seemed too much different.

00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:19.520
 So I just went to Gumroad.

00:33:19.520 --> 00:33:20.740
 It's very easy.

00:33:20.740 --> 00:33:21.680
 You just create an account.

00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:29.920
 You set up your bank account where you want the money to be transferred once somebody makes a purchase, which we use our company bank account for that.

00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:31.840
 It's a very easy setup.

00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:37.480
 Basically, like because you put all of those tax numbers and stuff, I think they have some kind of system in place to verify you.

00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:39.540
 So it's very easy, very straightforward.

00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:42.400
 And then you choose from one of the designs.

00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:52.540
 I had to create a couple of images in Canva to conform to their dimensions, which I basically use exactly the same cover, just like reformat it for different dimensions.

00:33:52.540 --> 00:33:53.860
 Yeah.

00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.140
 And then connected our domain, pragmaticpodcaster.com.

00:33:57.140 --> 00:34:02.300
 And it was published within, I think, a day because there are no approvals, no reviews.

00:34:02.300 --> 00:34:03.460
 I actually don't know how they do it.

00:34:03.460 --> 00:34:05.220
 You could put all sorts of scam there.

00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:08.020
 And I don't know how it works.

00:34:08.020 --> 00:34:08.820
 Yeah.

00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:12.820
 And they pay us every Friday when there is something to pay us.

00:34:12.820 --> 00:34:17.680
 Or you can also create discount codes, which we created a few of.

00:34:18.200 --> 00:34:23.640
 Like I did one discount code for my Instagram followers, one for my Telegram followers, and then one for LinkedIn.

00:34:23.640 --> 00:34:25.960
 So code Metacast gives you 30% off.

00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:31.580
 And yeah, all the sales we had were from people using one of those discount codes.

00:34:31.580 --> 00:34:34.840
 And you could actually see where people are coming from based on the discount code.

00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:35.560
 Yeah.

00:34:35.560 --> 00:34:37.640
 It's a very straightforward, very pleasant experience.

00:34:37.640 --> 00:34:41.880
 And then Amazon, how did the experience of publishing for Amazon go?

00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:48.040
 So Amazon has this thing called Kindle Direct Publishing, KDP.

00:34:48.200 --> 00:34:48.360
 Yeah.

00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.340
 So you basically just go create an account.

00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:54.180
 I wanted to create a separate account, like a company account.

00:34:54.180 --> 00:34:58.320
 But turns out you cannot create a separate Amazon account with the same phone number.

00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:01.880
 So I had to use my own account.

00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:04.640
 But KDP is essentially like a sub-account.

00:35:04.640 --> 00:35:06.560
 You can even put a different name in there.

00:35:06.560 --> 00:35:09.920
 But it's just attached to the same login and phone number.

00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:11.720
 So yeah, I put all of our company details.

00:35:11.720 --> 00:35:13.820
 I use Metacast Inc. as the publisher.

00:35:13.820 --> 00:35:17.280
 I put our bank account details there, all of that.

00:35:18.040 --> 00:35:19.920
 It was a pretty straightforward experience.

00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.880
 I would say user experience is kind of clunky-ish.

00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:24.620
 Gamma Road was a lot simpler.

00:35:24.620 --> 00:35:27.740
 It's almost like an internal tool for Amazon.

00:35:27.740 --> 00:35:28.400
 So yeah.

00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:29.100
 Yeah.

00:35:29.100 --> 00:35:30.420
 It is pretty good.

00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:31.440
 I would say it's not powerful.

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.600
 It does its job.

00:35:32.600 --> 00:35:35.060
 Again, like B minus, C plus kind of.

00:35:35.060 --> 00:35:36.020
 But it gets the job done.

00:35:36.020 --> 00:35:40.160
 There's probably about 200 people working in there only.

00:35:40.160 --> 00:35:42.920
 Yeah, only in some like 5,000 people org.

00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:43.860
 So yeah.

00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:48.300
 And then you submit your Kindle version and then it goes into the review.

00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:50.920
 I suppose some humans look at it.

00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.520
 Mine got approved right away without any hurdles.

00:35:53.520 --> 00:35:54.840
 It took maybe two or three days.

00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:58.180
 And then based on the Kindle book, you also create paperback and hardcovers.

00:35:58.540 --> 00:35:59.060
 Oh, okay.

00:35:59.060 --> 00:36:01.580
 So you have to do the Kindle first?

00:36:01.580 --> 00:36:03.200
 No, you don't have to.

00:36:03.200 --> 00:36:04.000
 I don't think so.

00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.340
 But I started with Kindle because I already had the EPUB.

00:36:06.340 --> 00:36:11.440
 And then I created that PDF in Adobe InDesign.

00:36:11.720 --> 00:36:14.240
 And then I used that for paperback and for hardcover.

00:36:14.240 --> 00:36:16.720
 Then I had to upload different covers.

00:36:16.720 --> 00:36:19.900
 I think description and all that data is the same.

00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:29.920
 They let you choose the price point for all of the marketplaces being like .com, .mx, .canada, .eu, whatever they have.

00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:34.280
 Where basically I tried to make sure that the margin is five bucks everywhere.

00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:38.660
 Except for I think some of the countries like India and Argentina or whatever.

00:36:38.660 --> 00:36:41.120
 They offered to list it for a lower price.

00:36:41.700 --> 00:36:43.700
 Maybe because the purchase power is different in those countries.

00:36:43.700 --> 00:36:46.040
 So I lowered those prices as well.

00:36:46.040 --> 00:36:50.580
 And then, yeah, again, those go through the two or three days review and then it just gets published.

00:36:50.580 --> 00:36:55.940
 Was there anything specific about designing the cover for the hardcover one?

00:36:55.940 --> 00:37:00.960
 No, but you just have to account for all of those bleed margins and all that.

00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:02.980
 I got the hardcover sample.

00:37:02.980 --> 00:37:04.380
 It's pretty good.

00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:07.660
 I think our Metacast logo with all of the background lighting.

00:37:07.660 --> 00:37:10.380
 I would say the quality is a bit lower than I expected.

00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:11.620
 I think it's still decent.

00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:13.060
 But lower than I expected.

00:37:13.060 --> 00:37:16.880
 On the hardcover specifically, but not on the paperback.

00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:19.080
 No, both hardcover and softcover in paperback.

00:37:19.080 --> 00:37:26.760
 So next time we do another edition, I'll probably look at that logo, maybe make it less glowy, neon-y.

00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:27.960
 Less glowy, yeah.

00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:33.220
 And so since publishing, you have put on some Google Ads and stuff like that.

00:37:33.220 --> 00:37:34.220
 How is that working?

00:37:34.220 --> 00:37:35.100
 What are you learning?

00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:39.800
 So I started Google Ads last week for the Gumroad.

00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:41.880
 These are like keyword ads?

00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:43.060
 Keyword ads, yeah.

00:37:43.180 --> 00:37:50.640
 So if you search on Google for how do I start a podcast and a bunch of similar queries, actually, there are no other ads there.

00:37:50.640 --> 00:37:53.020
 So if you do that, basically, our ad is the only ad.

00:37:53.020 --> 00:37:54.100
 I personally have not seen it.

00:37:54.100 --> 00:37:58.340
 I think Google doesn't show it to me because I'm the owner of that ad.

00:37:58.620 --> 00:37:59.240
 Maybe that's why.

00:37:59.240 --> 00:38:01.160
 And I only do it in the U.S. for now.

00:38:01.160 --> 00:38:02.780
 So it will show our ad.

00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:10.800
 You input a few headers, you input a few descriptions, and Google sort of mixes and matches them and tries to optimize.

00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:16.620
 And I set up a Google Ads tag and a Google Analytics tag on the Gumroad website.

00:38:16.740 --> 00:38:20.440
 You just give them a tag ID and also inject some of the code for Google Ads.

00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:25.500
 And that enables Google to track how those ads convert.

00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:28.320
 That allows Gumroad to track how it's performing.

00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:33.780
 It allows Google Ads to track how it performs on Gumroad because it allows data to be sent from Gumroad to Google.

00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:40.680
 So I set the campaign to optimize for conversions, which means like if people are buying, it will do something differently.

00:38:41.500 --> 00:38:47.560
 So far, there have been about 30 clicks costing $1 each.

00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:49.120
 It's just over $1 each.

00:38:49.120 --> 00:38:51.160
 That was the crazy part for me.

00:38:51.160 --> 00:38:51.780
 Yes.

00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:52.940
 Like there are no other ads.

00:38:52.940 --> 00:38:56.580
 We are still getting charged like $1 per click because it's auction-based.

00:38:56.580 --> 00:38:58.560
 Like I don't know why it's so much.

00:38:58.560 --> 00:39:00.600
 And zero purchases.

00:39:00.600 --> 00:39:03.160
 So we have pretty decent click-through rate.

00:39:03.160 --> 00:39:06.820
 So about 7% or 8% of people who see the ad actually click the ad.

00:39:07.020 --> 00:39:13.340
 And I made sure that everywhere in the ad, I put the price so that people don't think like it's like a free thing.

00:39:13.340 --> 00:39:14.360
 I'm just going to click on it.

00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:15.380
 Free booklet, yeah.

00:39:15.380 --> 00:39:21.900
 They see $9.99 and then still they click in to get to the page and then they don't buy it there.

00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:23.800
 And then they don't buy, they don't add to the card.

00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:31.200
 I've changed the copy of the page to make like added review there and like added those five stars.

00:39:31.200 --> 00:39:34.580
 Emojis, try to make it more enticing.

00:39:34.580 --> 00:39:36.160
 There's still no change.

00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:44.620
 And then yesterday you and I talked about why don't we just make it free and see if people download it, even if it's free.

00:39:44.620 --> 00:39:45.980
 Like what is not working there?

00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:47.680
 Because it's, you can't talk to those people.

00:39:47.680 --> 00:39:48.680
 You can't ask them.

00:39:48.680 --> 00:39:53.960
 Because the click-through is happening, it's the final buying is not happening.

00:39:53.960 --> 00:40:00.840
 And you'd assume the click-through is already knowing that it's a $10 book.

00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:05.160
 So something about that page that they're landing on is not working.

00:40:05.160 --> 00:40:07.420
 We're trying out various things in there, yeah.

00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:08.040
 Yeah.

00:40:08.040 --> 00:40:14.540
 And so we made it free now just to see if that leads to any conversions.

00:40:14.540 --> 00:40:21.520
 Because if it does, we could explore an option where we offer maybe a free booklet, shorter version.

00:40:21.680 --> 00:40:25.320
 And then people can buy a full version after they read the short one.

00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:29.280
 Even though it's like $1 per click, I don't think it's going to be sustainable.

00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:32.360
 Given that you have a margin of, I think, $7 on Gumroad.

00:40:33.060 --> 00:40:39.700
 So my hypothesis is that one of the reasons why it doesn't work is people land on some basically

00:40:39.700 --> 00:40:41.060
 random website.

00:40:41.060 --> 00:40:43.300
 They're not familiar with Gumroad.

00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:43.940
 Yeah.

00:40:43.940 --> 00:40:46.120
 And they ask to put their credit card in.

00:40:46.120 --> 00:40:47.800
 It might be a bit of a hard sell.

00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:51.820
 So Amazon might work better for us.

00:40:51.820 --> 00:40:52.540
 I mean, that's the hypothesis.

00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:56.300
 So we will exhaust our options with Gumroad first because we get higher margin there.

00:40:56.300 --> 00:40:58.760
 And we also have more control there in terms of analytics.

00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:02.980
 But then we'll try and do Amazon ads.

00:41:02.980 --> 00:41:07.580
 And with Amazon, I think it's very important to have some reviews.

00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:10.880
 So, so far, we have two five-star reviews, verified purchases.

00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:17.940
 So if you buy our book, please leave us a review because that helps gain credibility.

00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:19.680
 Not just for Amazon, right?

00:41:19.680 --> 00:41:24.560
 But for people who are looking at a book, if I see zero reviews on the product, I'm not going

00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:25.000
 to buy it.

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.700
 So that's why we need to have some more reviews.

00:41:27.700 --> 00:41:29.880
 So that's why we'll keep experimenting with Gumroad.

00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:35.980
 But the next step will be to try more stuff on Amazon with maybe like directing Google ads

00:41:35.980 --> 00:41:40.480
 to Amazon, which we will not be able to track effectiveness of, unfortunately, and also trying

00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:44.920
 to do ads on Amazon itself and see how that performs.

00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:48.620
 But yeah, so, so far, it's going a lot slower than I thought.

00:41:48.620 --> 00:41:54.600
 And I think eventually, you know, we might change our strategy towards the book altogether.

00:41:54.600 --> 00:41:58.380
 Once we make money with the app, the book could just become a marketing thing.

00:41:58.380 --> 00:42:02.280
 We just give away for free to gain visibility and to build a reputation, right?

00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.780
 Right now, we are still trying to make money.

00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:11.080
 We're also learning quite a lot about the ads ecosystem and how all of this works, that

00:42:11.080 --> 00:42:12.580
 that's going to be very valuable.

00:42:12.580 --> 00:42:18.300
 If you have to pay like $1 per click to acquire new users, that's not going to be sustainable.

00:42:18.300 --> 00:42:20.640
 We don't have VC funding to afford that.

00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:24.740
 We don't have millions to pour into just like buying users.

00:42:24.740 --> 00:42:25.480
 Yeah.

00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:26.760
 Okay.

00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:28.460
 So that was a great episode.

00:42:28.460 --> 00:42:36.200
 53 minutes recording as we speak, which originally we had planned the whole episode.

00:42:36.200 --> 00:42:39.580
 Like the thing that came out last week was part one.

00:42:39.580 --> 00:42:40.860
 This is part two.

00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:43.540
 We have decided, okay, we'll do it as one.

00:42:43.540 --> 00:42:46.240
 And that would have been like almost two hours long.

00:42:46.640 --> 00:42:47.040
 Yeah.

00:42:47.040 --> 00:42:49.080
 So I think it's good that we split it up.

00:42:49.080 --> 00:42:49.740
 All right.

00:42:49.740 --> 00:42:54.500
 So to close this up, Ilya, what podcasts are you listening to right now?

00:42:54.500 --> 00:42:57.000
 Can't you answer questions for once?

00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.020
 I need my voice to rest.

00:42:59.020 --> 00:43:00.120
 What are you listening to?

00:43:00.120 --> 00:43:00.340
 Yeah.

00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:06.100
 So right now there are two things that U.S. Open is going on.

00:43:06.100 --> 00:43:09.880
 So I'm listening daily, almost daily to the tennis podcast.

00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:10.900
 That's soccer, right?

00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:12.640
 No, that's tennis.

00:43:12.640 --> 00:43:14.560
 Give more context.

00:43:14.560 --> 00:43:15.560
 Yes.

00:43:15.560 --> 00:43:17.800
 U.S. Open Tennis Championship.

00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:22.180
 One of the four Grand Slam events of the year that's going on right now.

00:43:22.180 --> 00:43:26.240
 As we speak, it's going to be almost the quarterfinals.

00:43:26.240 --> 00:43:29.520
 I mean, as you're listening, it'll be the quarterfinals going on.

00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:32.720
 So the tennis podcast, that's what I'm listening to every day.

00:43:32.720 --> 00:43:35.700
 So they go through the entire day's play.

00:43:35.700 --> 00:43:42.420
 I love the way they talk about like, it's more emotional than factual about what happened

00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:42.980
 in the matches.

00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:47.260
 It's more behind the scenes, kind of like what happened in the interviews and all that.

00:43:47.260 --> 00:43:50.440
 I'm not spending each and every moment watching tennis, right?

00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:53.200
 Maybe I watch an hour or so every day.

00:43:53.200 --> 00:43:57.960
 But this podcast keeps me up with like what's happening behind the scenes.

00:43:58.120 --> 00:44:01.900
 And it also tells me about maybe some of the matches that I did not watch.

00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:02.840
 What happened in there?

00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:04.460
 What were the big points there?

00:44:04.460 --> 00:44:06.620
 So I like that during the Grand Slams.

00:44:06.620 --> 00:44:09.700
 The other one was Hard Fork.

00:44:09.700 --> 00:44:11.520
 There is a new episode.

00:44:11.520 --> 00:44:18.140
 So the latest episode, as we were recording on August 29th, was they had a story about New

00:44:18.140 --> 00:44:21.480
 York City basically stopping Airbnb.

00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:28.800
 And there is a really nice article or like podcast on the effects of that, why it's happening

00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:33.060
 and how Airbnb is trying to do, what hosts are thinking.

00:44:33.060 --> 00:44:35.920
 Very different, all sorts of perspectives in there.

00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:37.280
 So I really like that.

00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:43.760
 Other thread in that episode was about the GPU shortage right now and what crazy things startups

00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.320
 and companies are trying to do to acquire GPU.

00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:49.880
 So it was overall a really good podcast episode.

00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:51.200
 That's cool.

00:44:51.200 --> 00:44:53.680
 So I want to share two things.

00:44:54.200 --> 00:45:00.460
 So last week, actually the week before last, I binged on the entire catalog of six or seven

00:45:00.460 --> 00:45:06.100
 episodes of the podcast called The Really Good Podcast by Bobby Althoff.

00:45:06.660 --> 00:45:12.860
 I discovered Bobby just accidentally on TikTok, just got recommended to me in the feed.

00:45:12.860 --> 00:45:18.740
 And she was talking to Mark Cuban, who is a famous investor and he's the owner of a basketball

00:45:18.740 --> 00:45:20.280
 team in Detroit, I think.

00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:22.080
 Oh, he was on Shark Tank.

00:45:22.080 --> 00:45:25.260
 I mean, I never watched Shark Tank, but that's probably where people know him from, right?

00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:27.340
 He's one of the sharks there in the tank.

00:45:27.340 --> 00:45:32.920
 Feeding on those poor startup fish.

00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:33.720
 Yes.

00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:34.240
 Yes.

00:45:34.240 --> 00:45:37.020
 Yeah, but he comes across as a very nice, generous person, by the way.

00:45:37.020 --> 00:45:38.800
 He is one of the nice people in there.

00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:39.000
 Yeah.

00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:43.900
 So they're sitting on the concrete floor somewhere in the parking lot.

00:45:43.900 --> 00:45:48.260
 It's like dirty socks and all in that clip that I saw on TikTok.

00:45:48.260 --> 00:45:52.580
 And she asks him questions like, can you give me some money?

00:45:52.580 --> 00:45:54.480
 And he's like, no.

00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:55.660
 She's like, why not?

00:45:55.660 --> 00:45:58.380
 And the whole flow of the conversation is like this.

00:45:58.380 --> 00:46:05.680
 So it's almost like she just blurs out questions, sometimes switching the subject in the middle

00:46:05.680 --> 00:46:07.280
 of the other person answering the question.

00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:12.160
 And it's just so bizarre the way she does it.

00:46:12.160 --> 00:46:14.560
 For me, it was like a puzzle to crack, right?

00:46:14.560 --> 00:46:16.400
 I'm like, what am I seeing?

00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:21.560
 So there is something very wrong about the whole conversation, like the flow of it.

00:46:21.560 --> 00:46:24.140
 But there is also something very captivating.

00:46:24.140 --> 00:46:28.000
 So yeah, I was doing some stuff before my family came back home to the US.

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.640
 And I was like doing stuff in the house.

00:46:30.640 --> 00:46:32.620
 So I listened to all of her episodes.

00:46:32.620 --> 00:46:35.380
 And that Mark Cuban is one of the better ones.

00:46:35.380 --> 00:46:36.680
 But the other ones...

00:46:36.680 --> 00:46:38.600
 So somehow she got to talk to Drake.

00:46:38.600 --> 00:46:40.040
 I don't know any of his songs.

00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:42.420
 I mean, if you sing me his song, I'll probably remember it.

00:46:42.420 --> 00:46:44.920
 But I don't know if any of his songs are...

00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:45.840
 But I know his name.

00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:49.020
 I know he's like a big shot kind of performer.

00:46:49.020 --> 00:46:51.560
 So she somehow got to record with him.

00:46:51.560 --> 00:46:53.480
 I watched that interview as well.

00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.640
 And then he started introducing her to his friends.

00:46:57.640 --> 00:47:01.240
 So I think she has like three or four episodes with like rappers.

00:47:01.240 --> 00:47:09.460
 And this whole thing just feels so either staged or like absolutely bizarre.

00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:11.580
 But yeah, somehow I just got into it.

00:47:11.580 --> 00:47:13.820
 But actually last week, I saw another clip in TikTok.

00:47:13.820 --> 00:47:15.880
 She was a guest on somebody else's thing.

00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.180
 And they asked her and she couldn't kind of contain laughter.

00:47:19.180 --> 00:47:23.620
 And like I never saw her laugh in her own videos or her own podcast.

00:47:23.620 --> 00:47:27.320
 So maybe it's a character that she portrays in those podcasts.

00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:32.120
 And she creates this kind of whole artificial like total weirdness.

00:47:32.120 --> 00:47:33.160
 Persona, yeah.

00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:33.980
 Yeah, that persona.

00:47:33.980 --> 00:47:37.180
 So anyway, so Bobby Althoff, the really good podcast.

00:47:37.180 --> 00:47:38.680
 I'll keep listening to that.

00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:42.800
 Some of those things like I'm almost embarrassed to recommend, but I personally really like it.

00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:44.420
 Yeah.

00:47:44.420 --> 00:47:48.400
 And then just very briefly, I haven't finished listening to this yet, but it's a very great

00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:51.260
 episode on the show, How I Built This by Guy Raz.

00:47:51.260 --> 00:47:52.900
 Probably everybody knows this show.

00:47:52.900 --> 00:47:54.220
 It's about Tetris.

00:47:55.020 --> 00:47:58.860
 The game that actually came out of the country I was born in from USSR.

00:47:58.860 --> 00:48:02.940
 And I listened to about 40 minutes of it so far.

00:48:02.940 --> 00:48:06.280
 There's this guy called Dirk Rogers or something.

00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:08.940
 It's one of the newer episodes, right?

00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:10.620
 Like in the last month or...

00:48:10.620 --> 00:48:14.220
 It's the latest episode based as of today, as of the time we were recording this.

00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:18.580
 So this guy, he was working with the Russian creator of the game.

00:48:18.580 --> 00:48:21.420
 He brought it to Game Boy.

00:48:21.420 --> 00:48:24.060
 That's how it got like insanely popular everywhere.

00:48:24.060 --> 00:48:28.880
 So the interesting thing that I just want to call out from that episode, the reason they

00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:35.340
 knew the game was going to be a super hit is in Russia, whoever worked in front of computers

00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:37.820
 in the late 80s, when we were playing Tetris.

00:48:37.820 --> 00:48:44.120
 It basically came to the point where it started to disrupt the productivity of government organizations.

00:48:44.120 --> 00:48:47.040
 Like Solitaire was for a while later.

00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:49.240
 Later on, because Tetris was before Solitaire.

00:48:49.240 --> 00:48:51.220
 Yeah, like on Windows, yeah.

00:48:51.220 --> 00:48:53.300
 I think Windows was actually after this.

00:48:53.300 --> 00:48:54.860
 It was like a DOS time still.

00:48:54.860 --> 00:48:55.640
 Right, right.

00:48:55.640 --> 00:48:56.300
 That's what I mean.

00:48:56.300 --> 00:49:02.240
 Like later on with Windows 98 or something, Solitaire was built in and everywhere on Office

00:49:02.240 --> 00:49:05.400
 Desk, you would just see people like flipping the cards on that.

00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:10.420
 The really cool story that I really enjoyed in the podcast is when, so this guy, his wife

00:49:10.420 --> 00:49:13.060
 is Japanese and also his parents moved to Japan.

00:49:13.060 --> 00:49:14.240
 So he works in Japan.

00:49:14.240 --> 00:49:16.840
 He's like Dutch American or something, but he lived in Japan.

00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:23.880
 So he got an audience with the Nintendo CEO, owner, basically the chief of Nintendo.

00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:25.540
 They did a bunch of stuff.

00:49:25.540 --> 00:49:28.920
 And then at some point he came to him and pitched him Tetris.

00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.720
 So this guy, he doesn't play games.

00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:37.840
 He calls in this guy, I forgot his Yamamoto or something, the guy who created Super Mario.

00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:40.520
 And he asks him like, is this game any good?

00:49:40.520 --> 00:49:42.620
 And he says, yes.

00:49:42.620 --> 00:49:46.140
 And I think Yamoji is the name of the Nintendo CEO.

00:49:46.140 --> 00:49:47.740
 And he's like, why?

00:49:47.740 --> 00:49:48.540
 Well, how do you know this?

00:49:48.540 --> 00:49:54.140
 And he's like, because your accountants and other people like who work for Nintendo play

00:49:54.140 --> 00:49:56.960
 this during lunch breaks and after the workday is over.

00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:00.980
 So like people play that game when they don't have to play games.

00:50:00.980 --> 00:50:04.040
 And yeah, so that's how they got the deal and all that.

00:50:04.040 --> 00:50:12.220
 And it was just so interesting to listen about how business was done back in late 80s, early

00:50:12.220 --> 00:50:12.840
 90s.

00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:14.160
 And also in that culture.

00:50:14.160 --> 00:50:20.280
 It's actually the point that I'm on right now is he came to USSR to negotiate with the

00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:22.140
 Russians about the licensing terms.

00:50:22.140 --> 00:50:24.760
 And I haven't finished listening to this yet.

00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:26.840
 So yeah, it's just a fascinating story.

00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:29.860
 Like any story on Guy Raz's shows, I think it's incredible.

00:50:29.860 --> 00:50:30.860
 Highly recommend.

00:50:30.860 --> 00:50:31.380
 Okay.

00:50:31.380 --> 00:50:32.680
 That was a very long answer.

00:50:32.820 --> 00:50:37.000
 I think that's the wrap for episode 34, part two.

00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:37.560
 Yeah.

00:50:37.560 --> 00:50:42.360
 Next week, we'll do an episode on inerts of our startup.

00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:49.040
 Some of the subscriptions that we've been using, the tools that we're using, and some of the

00:50:49.040 --> 00:50:50.840
 struggles that we've gone through.

00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:52.720
 It'll be an interesting one.

00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:59.520
 Some of the products of some very popular, world-known company that has no clue how to

00:50:59.520 --> 00:51:02.900
 do UX across different products.

00:51:02.900 --> 00:51:05.340
 So, but you mentioned wrap.

00:51:05.340 --> 00:51:06.900
 I didn't.

00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:07.980
 You did Drake.

00:51:07.980 --> 00:51:09.020
 Okay.

00:51:09.020 --> 00:51:13.740
 So I thought, is the chicken wrap or is it, you know, when like people wrap things?

00:51:13.740 --> 00:51:14.080
 Okay.

00:51:14.080 --> 00:51:17.380
 But so my kids are back home, right?

00:51:17.380 --> 00:51:23.620
 And my younger one listens to the artist called Video Game Rap Battles.

00:51:23.620 --> 00:51:25.220
 It's actually pretty cool.

00:51:25.220 --> 00:51:27.800
 This guy, or guys, I don't know actually, it's multiple people.

00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:31.020
 They have something like Pikachu versus Eevee.

00:51:31.020 --> 00:51:32.040
 Eevee is another Pokemon.

00:51:32.040 --> 00:51:34.080
 It's like a rap battle, which is pretty cool.

00:51:34.080 --> 00:51:34.720
 Kids love it.

00:51:34.720 --> 00:51:40.800
 But what I discovered recently, following my kids, like using Spotify, there is a band called

00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:46.320
 Howdy Toons that has an album called Heavy Metal Dinosaur Songs.

00:51:46.900 --> 00:51:50.360
 And man, I like listening to those songs myself.

00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:55.640
 So those are basically like heavy metal from the 80s, early 90s, like very like shred,

00:51:55.640 --> 00:51:58.760
 kind of lots of guitars, very professionally made.

00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:04.320
 But it's songs about velociraptors and spinozaurs and T-Rexes.

00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:05.640
 I like listening to those.

00:52:05.640 --> 00:52:12.040
 And I think we've crossed that era of like Baby Shark songs into...

00:52:12.040 --> 00:52:13.680
 Into dinosaur heavy metal.

00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:19.320
 It's so funny because like when in mid 90s, when I was listening to the 80s music, like

00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:21.800
 heavy metal, it was still very edgy.

00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:23.020
 It was marginal.

00:52:23.020 --> 00:52:26.640
 You know, when I was growing up, people like frown at you when you listen to heavy metal.

00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:31.660
 Like you would never hear heavy metal playing out of shops or like on the street, right?

00:52:31.660 --> 00:52:36.180
 Right now it's like kids songs are shred heavy metal.

00:52:36.600 --> 00:52:36.920
 Yeah.

00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:45.340
 One last thing now that you've talked about music and YouTube is the last segment of the

00:52:45.340 --> 00:52:48.180
 Hard Fork podcast episode that I just talked about.

00:52:48.180 --> 00:52:50.800
 The latest one is of August 29th.

00:52:51.340 --> 00:52:53.600
 The last segment is about AI music.

00:52:53.600 --> 00:52:57.740
 And it has some really incredible things in there.

00:52:57.740 --> 00:53:04.360
 Like their point of view is like somebody started AI music based on the voice of a well-known

00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:04.660
 artist.

00:53:04.660 --> 00:53:06.500
 I won't go into all the details right now.

00:53:06.500 --> 00:53:09.620
 And what's the legality and all of that.

00:53:09.740 --> 00:53:12.840
 But they also play a lot of interesting music in there.

00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:14.440
 It's a fascinating listen.

00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:15.660
 Go give it a listen.

00:53:15.660 --> 00:53:16.860
 Oh, nice.

00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:17.100
 Yeah.

00:53:17.100 --> 00:53:17.880
 I should take a listen.

00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:22.520
 Actually, now I wonder if the heavy metal dinosaur songs are produced by AI or not.

00:53:22.520 --> 00:53:24.960
 And actually, with this kind of music, I don't care.

00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:25.940
 Okay.

00:53:25.940 --> 00:53:26.440
 All right.

00:53:26.440 --> 00:53:26.900
 Cool.

00:53:26.900 --> 00:53:27.680
 That's the wrap.

00:53:27.680 --> 00:53:28.820
 See you next week.

00:53:28.820 --> 00:53:30.100
 Chicken wrap?

00:53:30.100 --> 00:53:31.880
 Or dinosaur wrap.