WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.320 At 555, I wake up, make breakfast for my son, drop him off at the school bus. For some reason I pull up my phone. 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:13.560 And I look at my personal email and I see that Apple sent me an email. And I have this sinking feeling. 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:19.719 The ground is shattering under me. I remember I come back home from the garage and tell my wife I need to take a walk. 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:29.559 Hello and welcome to episode 52 of the Metacast Behind the scenes podcast. I'm your host, Yolanda Bestylif. 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:32.158 And I'm Arnavdeca. I'm Jenny. 00:00:32.158 --> 00:00:39.799 Today we have Jenny joining us on the show because we have a very important topic we want to discuss. 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.878 So we are about to launch Metacast in open beta. 00:00:43.878 --> 00:00:51.840 And this was a 180 turnaround in our approach to the launch that happened in the last three days. 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:58.759 So we wanted to have this recording to document how we did all that, but also to announce these exciting news. 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:01.518 To the 15 people that listen to our podcast. 00:01:01.518 --> 00:01:05.640 It's more than 15 now, but they are not like hundreds of people. 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:09.000 Now we're just kidding. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.879 I guess let's talk about launch stages just in general. 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:21.478 So in the company like Amazon or Google that follows a proper launch process that has lots of resources and wants to do things properly. 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:36.640 Usually you have a first stage, which is something like an alpha or a private beta where you have a half-working product that does some things, but it doesn't do most of the functionality that you intend to put in there. 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:40.239 It lacks polish, maybe it lacks some security features as well. 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:46.680 And you give it to a very small set of committed loyal customers, trusted customers, so friends and family. 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:51.040 Usually it's a very small group of people that get access to it under a non-disclosure agreement. 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:52.879 Also known as an NDA. 00:01:52.879 --> 00:02:02.640 At this phase, you're basically trying to add or build the things that are differentiating in your app or service versus the rest. 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.719 And you don't care about anything else at this point. 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:11.759 You want to see that stuff that you're building actually has validation like people actually want to use it or not. 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:19.080 Right. Yeah. And in the enterprise space, you would get some of your customers who have been asking for this feature or this product for a long time. 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.199 They are committed to help you because they want what you are building. 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:24.919 So yeah, it's going to be a building together with your customers in a way. 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:31.319 And these are customers that are really ready to put up with a lot of bugs and issues and brokenness. 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:39.639 And typically you can break things while you're in private beta, also known as closed beta, because that's just the expectation. 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:48.479 It's half-working software that might... I think when we did chat bot launch, I think we considered wiping out customers' data even, but I think we managed to not do it. 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:49.759 But overall, it wasn't a table. 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:54.039 At the end of the private beta, it's possible that you just wipe out all of the data that customers put in. 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:59.639 So it's kind of a risky proposition for most customers, except for the most loyal ones, the most committed ones. 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:02.879 Then the next stage would be like, you got some validation. 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:08.000 Now you want to get more validation from a broader set of users. 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:14.000 And you do what would be called preview, the Amazon, Google also calls it preview. 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.519 It used to be called Open Beta. 00:03:15.519 --> 00:03:17.359 You know, it's companies, I think it's both of them. 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:23.039 But beta kind of signals that the product is half-baked or under-baked. 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:28.080 So they change that position, but in fact, a preview is a beta that anybody can access. 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.360 So the difference between closed and open is that closed one. 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:37.759 The creators are selecting who gets in versus the open one. 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.120 Anybody can choose to go in and try the software. 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.879 There's no gating criteria, but it's still a beta. 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:49.439 And is there still an NDA in the second in the Open Beta one? 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:55.280 No, because you basically publicly say that it's for anyone to use. 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.519 And I have not seen it before, but in our case, it will be the case. 00:03:59.519 --> 00:04:03.280 There may be a cap on how many users you allow into the Open Beta. 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:09.680 And in our case, it's less of a choice more of a constraint by Apple App Store. 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:16.560 And I don't know if actually if Google Play Store also has the same thing, but Apple only allows up to 5,000 people to be in the Open Beta. 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:20.560 So basically, as soon as we launch the Open Beta, it'll be gone within like minutes. 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.759 That's what you're saying. 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:22.800 I think so, yeah. 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:24.879 Like a Taylor Swift concert. 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:29.920 The Metacast beta is going to take down the internet. 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:34.480 Yes. Like there was a very geeky to Victoria from Anacortis in Washington. 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:39.839 You have to wake up at like six to get a spot for those 15 tickets that get released. 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:42.240 But more or my tennis court bookings. 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.519 I have to wake up at 630 AM and wait on a phone call for. 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:48.639 Anyway, let's not digress to far away. 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:54.079 So anyway, so we have been in closed beta since August. 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:59.040 As of today, we have 42 allow-listed users on the app. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.839 Fewer users use it, but we have 42. 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:07.040 Which I think is a good number to transition this from closed to open. 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:10.800 Because it's the answer to life, universe, and everything. 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:12.319 Jenny, do you remember that one? 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:16.560 That came up in episode 42, which was the last one I was on. 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:18.720 Yes, so we are hitching on that number. 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:28.319 So when we did the closed beta back in August, what we felt is the differentiating feature, the secret sauce in our app, and nothing else. 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:35.519 So even ourselves, when we were using it, we had to use other podcast apps for most of the functionality. 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:41.120 And we would listen to like a couple of our apps, just as a kind of like experimenting. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:50.480 Then I think Jenny joined shortly after, and then we added all the playlists and ability to search and discover podcasts and favorite them and all that. 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:54.079 So and actually, Jenny, you could not use it for the longest time. 00:05:54.079 --> 00:06:04.079 I felt kind of bad because I joined this company, and I wasn't using the app because where I live, I don't have unlimited data on my mobile plan. 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:06.720 And our app didn't have downloads yet. 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:14.000 So that was one of the first things that I wanted to build because I was like, this is the thing that's blocking me from using the app. 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:15.439 But now we have it. 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.800 Yeah, it actually reminds me that we forgot one of these stages. 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:20.000 It's dog footing. 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:29.439 When you have a version of software that is for internal use only, and the term dog footing comes from 1976, I think, adds. 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:34.399 It's like a dog food ad where they feed their canned dog food to dog. 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:38.639 And I think the question is, will the dog eat the dog food or something like that? 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:45.038 I forgot exactly premise there, but the idea is like, if your own dog will not eat your dog food at yourself, that nobody else is going to. 00:06:45.038 --> 00:06:48.718 And that was very big at Amazon, pretty much for every product. 00:06:48.718 --> 00:06:53.279 Yeah, actually, I would say even bigger at Google, because everybody uses Gmail and Google Docs and all that. 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.158 We have been dog footing for a long time, except Jenny. 00:06:56.158 --> 00:07:01.199 But I think since about December, we have been using it pretty consistently. 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:06.478 I don't use any other podcast apps right now, except for notifications. 00:07:06.478 --> 00:07:10.478 I like to get notified when specific episodes drop, and we don't have that yet. 00:07:10.478 --> 00:07:13.279 We won't have it even at launch, maybe. 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.158 But aside from that, I don't use any other app right now. 00:07:16.158 --> 00:07:18.240 So we've been pretty happy with it. 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.199 There's a few other people who have been using it consistently, too. 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:22.639 So, yeah. 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:32.000 So actually, before we go into more explanation of the decision, and what triggered that, I think it's time to stop calling, transcripts the secret sauce. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:35.920 We'll say exactly why we decided to open up more. 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:38.000 But what can our app do? 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:38.879 Our app. 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:40.399 Take a stab at your elevator page. 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:46.718 So you can do everything else that you can do in any other podcast app. 00:07:46.718 --> 00:07:50.319 But additionally, it's not just audio. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:59.038 We extract the metadata from the things that people are saying, the words that process is called transcribing. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:05.040 And using that transcript, what we enable is powerful features. 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:11.040 Like you can almost break that audio, the long form audio into small, small segments. 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:16.000 You can share bookmark highlights, specific things that are being said. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:20.160 So that's kind of our, what we thought was our secret sauce. 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:21.040 Until now. 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:26.000 So basically, we have an audio player that also has a transcript 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.360 displayed at the same time. And as you listen to audio, you also see the transcript. 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.120 And the transcript is synchronized with audio. 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:36.639 So it kind of moves, it shows you where exactly you're listening. 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:41.759 You can read or you can just like scroll and scheme double tap and listen from somewhere else. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:49.440 If you want to skip the ads, for example, you can just read them or skip them all together or skip a certain section of the podcast that you're not interested in. 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:53.200 Then you can bookmark any part of that episode, like you would do. 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:55.600 And Kindle app would be a great comparison here. 00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:08.480 Kindle or InstaPaper, where you can select a certain segment of text and that will be highlighted, which you can copy, share, or we have a feature where you can look at all of your bookmarks in the same place. 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.080 So you can see all the things that you've bookmarked. 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:18.480 If you want to go back to the book that somebody mentioned or some insight, you can always just go back and see that in play it again, which you can't do in any other app. 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.879 So other than that, you said that our app can do things that other apps can do. 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.600 Actually, our app can do more things. 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:28.480 They are not all complete, but it can do more things. 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:34.159 So, Genie, you want to tell us about the thing that our app can do that other apps can do as well that you have built. 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:39.919 Yeah, you can download an episode if you're not on a data plan that's unlimited. 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:50.399 Not only can you download, we also have these automatic playlists created in the app so that everything that you've ever downloaded, you can see it in one place. 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.078 You can choose to listen from there or delete all of it in one go. 00:09:54.078 --> 00:09:55.919 That's sort of like nice things, yeah. 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:11.519 Yeah, actually, if I can give a concrete example of how the transcripts in my life have been kind of fun and helpful, I listened to this podcast where they ended up talking for a part of it with one of the guys from Queer Eye. 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.840 And my family happened to be like really into Queer Eye at the time. 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:21.200 And so I wanted to play just that part of the podcast for my wife and my daughter. 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:32.960 And so I just went into it and searched for the guy's name and it jumped straight to that point in the transcript instead of me having to like scroll through the audio and find it right at the right place. 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:37.519 It was just searched for the text, tap on it, and away we go. 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:41.679 So once you have it, you realize how handy it is. 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:50.720 Yeah, I use it quite a lot with like sports podcasts too because they usually tend to talk about a lot of different topics that happen in the week or so. 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:53.120 And I'm maybe interested in one or two. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:58.559 Some podcasts tell you in the description when this segment is but most don't. 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:03.919 And then very easy way is to like search inside the podcast in our app to search for. 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:06.799 I'm interested in the Djokovic match. 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.000 So I'll search for Djokovic and like jump right to that segment. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:17.600 Yeah, I often use the two bookmark mentions of books or other podcasts or some names that I want to check out later. 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:25.519 And also I listen to a lot of business podcasts and if somebody says some insight or like a framework or a question that they asked them. 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:26.480 So actually, good example. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:35.120 I was listening to Alex Harmoji's show the game yesterday and he was explaining how he thinks about business in terms of constraints. 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:43.519 He basically finds the bottleneck and then he just keeps pounding that bottleneck until he removes it and then the business starts to grow and he looks for the next bottleneck. 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:45.039 That's just a very powerful framework. 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.719 Right? And I'm like, I don't want to forget about it because it's one and a half hour episode. 00:11:48.719 --> 00:11:50.639 So I just put the bookmark there. 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.839 I don't bookmark the whole section because it's too much. 00:11:53.839 --> 00:11:55.599 There's almost like a bookmark in the book rate. 00:11:55.599 --> 00:12:00.958 And I know that it starts on page 55 or something and then that's how I use this as well. 00:12:00.958 --> 00:12:02.799 But then we had a discussion in Slack. 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:05.839 I think it was something about niche stuff. 00:12:05.839 --> 00:12:07.958 And it was another Alex Harmoji's podcast. 00:12:07.958 --> 00:12:13.120 I didn't bookmark that part, but I went there and I used search to just search for word niche. 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:17.600 And then I found that specific segment that I took a screenshot and shared with you folks. 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:22.519 It just makes these kind of things very easy because those episodes wanted to hours long. 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:27.799 It's pretty much impossible to find anything unless you have a search functionality and the transcript that you can read. 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:37.360 Talking about the usability side just before I forget, we did do a demo of this in Vancouver two weeks back now or maybe it was last week I forgot. 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:42.120 But that was like exciting because a lot of people were interested in it came to talk to me afterwards. 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.759 It was in person not recorded so we can't share. 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:48.759 There's a good amount of validation that this stuff is really useful. 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.120 And we know that podcast players are generally popular. 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:54.919 There's a lot of them and people use them and pay for them. 00:12:54.919 --> 00:13:01.000 So there's the intrinsic as well as the direct validation for what we're building. 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:02.840 Yeah, we were very secretive. 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:04.399 We're like, oh, it's a secret sauce. 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:06.519 People have to sign an NDA to use it. 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:07.438 Yeah, they are. 00:13:07.438 --> 00:13:10.438 So why all of a sudden we talk about it some open day? 00:13:10.438 --> 00:13:20.399 I guess at this point in end of January before like three days ago, whatever happened, which we'll get to, where we were is, we know this is useful. 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:21.639 We're using it already. 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:23.279 We want to launch this app. 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:27.759 But to launch it, we need to add like, I don't know, 500 more things. 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:29.000 It's more like 50 things. 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:31.519 500 sounds exaggerated, but actually about 50. 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.559 So that's actually a very big number by itself. 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:39.120 50 things will probably take us at least a few months if not more than that significantly. 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:46.799 And the reason for wanting to do it that way was, we were a bit worried about the reviews. 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:58.679 Unlike web apps or SaaS products that you're selling to maybe B2B customers, you can release a half bake thing, see what the reception is, and keep it proving on iteratively. 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:13.000 Whereas an app, if you launch it, and you basically get a whole bunch of one-star reviews because things are broken, you can pretty much bet on the fact that somebody else is not going to like immediately pick that up. 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.639 Because people do look at reviews immediately. 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:17.519 That's one of the first things you look at. 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:18.519 I know about the two of you. 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:23.480 I mean, you can tell me, but for me, I think it was also a bit of a matter of pride in the way. 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:25.440 I want to launch something that's really polished. 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:29.639 I'm a big fan of Steve Jobs and all, and I like perfect products. 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:31.279 I like beautiful products. 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:38.399 I have a knife for little crappy things that may even be non-functional, but annoying. 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:42.639 I think I've always applied that lens to the products I work on. 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:46.679 So it was always hard to release half-baked stuff when it was at Amazon and Google. 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:50.000 I would always try to push the boundary on, like, make it more perfect. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:56.399 I try to let go of that mindset with Metacast, but I don't think I did until a few days ago. 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.399 Jenny, did you feel like that, too? 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:06.080 I think with our background at AWS, I think that there was a very high bar for launching something. 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:23.600 It might not look that way from the outside, but the number of things, like, the level of security things, integrations with other AWS things, I felt like the last product we worked on, AWS user notifications, the basic functionality was done probably six months 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:27.879 before we launched, because we had so much more extra stuff we had to do. 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:35.440 And the reason that we do that is because of customer obsession and because of the reputation of the brand. 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:42.120 So as a new company, I do want us to be a strong brand that customers love. 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:44.200 So I think that that's part of it. 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:55.759 It's just hard to know how many bugs, how many paper cuts are users willing to put up with before they set it aside or give it a one-star review. 00:15:55.759 --> 00:16:01.320 You hope that they understand our story that we're three people wanting to make something perfect. 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:06.279 We're not there yet, and we're not just gonna, like, leave something shitty forever. 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:12.200 We want to fix it more than you want us to fix it, but there's only so much time and stick with us. 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:19.320 And that's where when we started being like, hey, let's just do open beta because for one thing, they can't give us bad reviews yet. 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:24.000 And also people who are signing up for it are hopefully along for the ride. 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:28.639 They understand where we are in terms of the maturity of the product and all of that. 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:38.399 And it gives them that opportunity to talk with us directly and influence the direction of things, which I think is pretty cool, like to have a partnership with customers. 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.159 Yeah, build with them. 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:48.480 I think till last week we were in the mindset that we need to add these 50 things, polish it up, add all these things that we think for launch. 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:59.958 To be clear, of those 50 things, because I don't want us to sound like we have 50 features, it was more like maybe three or four, maybe five features, and everything else was just small paper cuts. 00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:04.240 Like a bug here, like a weird behavior there, like that bug cast is not important. 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:08.240 It's just a bunch of these smaller things that edge cases. 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:14.039 Yeah, but we wanted to fix all that because we wanted to launch in the app store directly. 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:18.318 But that changed in the last three days, why? 00:17:18.318 --> 00:17:25.519 We would like to say that, oh, we thought of this ourselves, but I can reconstruct this story for you. 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:31.398 So 555 on Friday wake up. 555 AM. 555 AM, yeah. 00:17:31.398 --> 00:17:37.079 My breakfast for my son dropped him off at the school bus, come back home at 6.40 or so. 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:49.839 For some reason, I pull up my phone, and I look at my personal email, and I see that Apple sent me an email that I need to accept in the new terms of service for podcast connect, which is the interface for podcasters to publish their podcast. 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.160 I usually don't even look at my Gmail for weeks. 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:58.599 But for some reason, I start reading it, and it says that Apple ads transcripts in the near future. 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.359 And I have this sinking feeling. 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:03.359 The ground is shattering under me. 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:04.959 It's a bit of a panic mode. 00:18:04.959 --> 00:18:19.719 And I've read about all of those stories where Google or Apple Amazon reads us something, and it just kills the business overnight for people who have something that is the same as theirs, but cost money, whereas Google makes it free, and they just get all of the market. 00:18:19.719 --> 00:18:22.119 So yeah, I had this very bad feeling. 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.638 I remember I come back home from the garage and tell my wife, I need to take a walk. 00:18:26.638 --> 00:18:27.919 Which day was this? 00:18:27.919 --> 00:18:30.719 Friday. We are recording this Wednesday, January 31st. 00:18:30.719 --> 00:18:32.159 This was Friday, the previous week. 00:18:32.159 --> 00:18:33.159 So five days ago. 00:18:33.159 --> 00:18:45.638 So on just the Wednesday before, when I did the demo, afterwards, one of the people came to me and said, I love this thing, but this is something that Apple or Google can build it in a month. 00:18:45.638 --> 00:18:47.359 And I said, yeah, they're not going to. 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:48.959 They don't put any focus on this. 00:18:48.959 --> 00:18:53.599 And then two days after, we heard, OK, I'm fully adding transcripts to the podcast app. 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:56.000 So. Right. So yeah, I go for a walk. 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.160 And I walk for about 10 kilometers or 6 kilometers. 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:01.960 I walk for a very long time. 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:03.559 And I just develop it. 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:04.079 Develop it. 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:09.398 And at the same time, I'm sending some thoughts to Slack, more like a stream of consciousness kind of thing. 00:19:09.398 --> 00:19:13.359 And I'm starting to realize that we are not really competing with Apple. 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.240 Well, first of all, it's not a zero sum game. 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.119 Multiple apps are already on the market. 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.839 Yes, Apple and Spotify are the leaders. 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:21.439 They have the majority market share. 00:19:21.439 --> 00:19:23.799 But they also they cater to everyone. 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:31.679 Whereas for us, and similar to other apps like Overcast, for example, we can cater to a very small group of customers, very small niche. 00:19:31.679 --> 00:19:34.559 More like podcasts is official in others. 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:43.039 Those people who are really passionate about podcasts, people who are subscribed to a lot, who want to write workflow, who want to really get the most out of their podcasts, and who are ready to pay for this. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:44.480 So that's our market. 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:48.799 And that market is probably just a few percent of the total population. 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:50.878 So we can build a tool for them. 00:19:50.878 --> 00:19:59.359 Let's say if you grab 1% or 2% off the entire market of podcast listeners, that's going to make us wildly profitable and happy. 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.000 To be honest, with all the scrutiny that comes, I don't even want to own 50% of the market. 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:12.680 Of the other states, smaller, maybe 25 is a bit fine, but not like a dominant player, where you start to get called to Congress and all that stuff, Senate, wherever they go. 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:14.000 I don't want to think about it. 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.440 And also, what it may be realizes, I mean, they said it explicitly. 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:19.240 They are doing this for accessibility. 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:22.359 And Spotify, when they add the transcripts, they also said it to the same way, the same thing. 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:24.039 They said it, they're doing for accessibility. 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:30.880 They are not really thinking about how do they make management of information better for you. 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:32.359 So it's more like it's just a nice addition. 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:35.119 It's like showing artwork, but you can also see the transcript. 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:48.920 Whereas we can really double down on that specific thing, on what you can extract from transcripts, for the specific user, make it into a tool, which will make no sense for majority of listeners, because they just plug it in, they listen to radio. 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:50.319 They don't need any of that. 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:51.200 And that's fine. 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:56.039 Yeah, I need to realize that we are focusing on the niche of the advanced podcast listeners. 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:57.839 And we should just double down on that. 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:08.878 And the fact that Apple has transcripts that's not necessarily irrelevant, it might be good, because it might be the tight lifts all boats, because Apple has set some standards. 00:21:08.878 --> 00:21:12.720 Like, if you have your own transcripts, you can provide them in specific format. 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.920 So there are some formats like SRT and VTT. 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:20.039 And there is a field in the RSS spec that supports this. 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:21.559 And some podcasts already do that. 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:28.640 So potentially more people will start adding transcripts to their podcasts, which means we don't have to generate those. 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:30.599 So we have less cost. 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:41.319 And also those transcripts will potentially be more accurate, because they may be more like human curated, or they can use this script, which has proprietary technology for transcription, which is better than what we are using. 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.799 And if more podcasts do that, we get to benefit from it as well. 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:52.159 And we basically compete on the grounds of the quality of tools that we provide, as opposed to the fact of the availability of the transcript itself. 00:21:52.159 --> 00:21:53.480 Yeah, I hope it makes sense. 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:58.960 So yeah, two hours of walking in my panic mode, turned into more like, this is a great opportunity. 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:00.519 And you sent me an email. 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:07.440 And I think this is the first time ever you have sent me an email in Outlook and all there's that important tag. 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:07.960 I didn't. 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:10.559 I think it's Gmail just marked it that way. 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:20.279 OK. Or maybe you added the exclamation marks in the red emoji to the subject line or something, but you sent me an email that was like I catching. 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:22.720 And just like you, I woke up. 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.440 I think about 6.30 AM that day, that's the first thing I read. 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:34.240 I went through a very similar journey, but all in my bed, maybe through about 30 minutes, I was reading through it. 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.079 I also felt that, oh, shit. 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:39.119 So Apple Podcast is a free product, and now they're adding it. 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.759 So I mean, why would somebody pay for what we're building, right? 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:52.960 But then I think as I read more and more about it, it dawned on me that they're, like you said, they're trying to show it almost like a separate artifact, the transcript, right? 00:22:52.960 --> 00:23:00.200 And not to say that they can't do the things that we're trying to do in the future, but right now, at least it feels like they're not trying to. 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.079 And they're going to launch in spring, which is still a few months away. 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:11.319 The most positive thing that I got out of all this was that there's already quite a lot of podcasts. 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:13.799 Some of them are paid that are doing pretty well. 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:22.039 They have playlists and features and all that that we have, and we like to think that we're actually putting a good UX workflow angle to all that. 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:28.720 But additionally, Apple doing this at large scale means that this is a useful thing. 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:37.398 I think that was like one of the biggest validations for what we're trying to do that I got indirectly through Apple trying to do this. 00:23:37.398 --> 00:23:43.880 And then we also talked about it, but I was thinking, OK, so this is Apple doing it, but what about Android? 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:46.240 Is Google going to do it immediately? 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:56.039 I've been thinking the same thing as that this is great for iOS users, but I'm an Android owner, and this doesn't impact me at all. 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:01.119 I have previously used Spotify for podcasts, and it drives me bonkers. 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:13.119 If my daughter listens to Taylor Swift on her Alexa, and then I open my Spotify, instead of the podcast, I was just listening to the recently played or continue playing as Taylor Swift. 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:18.960 So I personally really do not like mixing my music app with my podcast app. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.599 And also, Apple, it's huge scale, of course. 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.119 Can you contact them and say, hey, I'd really love this feature? 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:30.359 If what Apple provides is good for you, then that's a great app for you. 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:42.480 But I like to think of us as more accessible, not in the sense of accessibility, but in the sense of what other app can you contact the developers and say, hey, I've always wanted this thing. 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:44.079 And maybe they'll build it. 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:49.799 Well, even today morning, we got an email from a beta customer saying, hey, I wish it worked this way. 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:51.519 And we're like, yes, this makes sense. 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:52.480 We're thinking about it. 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:56.000 Yeah. And I think, like you said, we are not happy. 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.240 Ilya and I used to use Apple podcasts. 00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.599 We actually stopped using it, use other podcasts already. 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:03.200 So we don't like the UX. 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.960 We have met a lot of people over the last few months who don't like the UX. 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.680 So there is definitely that side to it. 00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:15.000 So at this point on Friday, we had our first startup crisis moment, right? 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.880 Like existential crisis. 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:17.799 All hands on deck. 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:18.480 Let's meet up. 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:20.240 Let's figure out what do we want to do. 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:21.799 Yeah, I'm like, should I have stated Google? 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:24.319 Right. 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:26.240 So yeah, let's talk about that. 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:28.720 And what happened next will surprise you. 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.440 Yeah. So we had a chat about this. 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:40.440 And I think we started to converge on the idea that we need to launch ASAP to beat Apple, of course, but I'm just kidding. 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:41.480 Well, same I kidding. 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:46.640 I mean, there is, I think some ego thing, at least for me to put a stake in the ground, but it's maybe not even secondary. 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:47.960 It's too short of you whatever it is. 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:52.759 I just had this realization that we've been hiding what we're doing and like calling a secret sauce. 00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:57.319 Now that it's out there, that Apple has set what they're doing, I think it's fine. 00:25:57.319 --> 00:25:58.680 We can just talk about it. 00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:00.920 I think eventually other apps will also have that. 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.319 So I didn't feel like we need to hide it anymore. 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.240 Because we also have this idea of like, what if Apple sees it in still this idea and all that. 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.480 I mean, they did see it when we submitted that. 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:13.079 When they tested it, you never know. 00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:16.240 We have been doing it since August after all, so yeah. 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:23.440 This is probably like the plight of a startup, though, is that will the big company find out and steal the idea? 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.880 But the idea is to not just be an idea. 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.799 We are more than that. 00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:31.599 I think ultimately we're just creating the app that we want. 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:41.440 And then if other people want it too, which I assume they will, unless the three of us are like incredibly unique within the podcast listening community, we're not trying to beat Apple. 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.920 Everyone can pick the flavor of podcasting app that they want. 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.640 And we're just going to keep making things, right? 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:50.920 We're going to keep adding to it. 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:53.400 So Apple can do its thing. 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:58.880 Yeah. The thing that changed our mindset is we need to launch this ASAP. 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:05.480 But at the same time, we cannot launch in the app store right away because there are still a lot of things missing. 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:06.559 There are bugs. 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:15.640 And basically, you will probably get at least a good number of one star reviews, probably a few four star five star also, but a good number of one star. 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:21.440 I think that's what made us realize that we need to go for an open beta immediately. 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:29.759 I think I also was swayed by our interview of Christian Selleck, who didn't open beta with thousands of users for the Apollo app. 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:34.480 So that interview is available on the Builders going to build a podcast episode one, our other podcast. 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:42.920 He didn't sway me at that very moment, but when we had this existential crisis discussion, I also reflected back on what Christian said in the podcast. 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:49.799 Actually, if you remember, right after we recorded with Christian, we did have a discussion on Slack. 00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:53.240 And I think maybe when we met too, that we should do an open beta. 00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:58.599 And we thought, OK, yeah, let's do an open beta, but it'll be somewhere before our launch. 00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:05.200 I think the timelines just got squeezed into, we do the open beta right now, even with all the bugs and everything. 00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:07.680 Yeah, so very important is when's the January 31st? 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.559 This episode comes out on February 7th. 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:15.878 I would hope we will have launched, or at least almost launched, the open beta by the time. 00:28:15.878 --> 00:28:18.480 So yeah, it is accelerating very rapidly. 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:28.079 What also helped me, I had a friend of mine, Rassoul, who is also one of our close beta users, visit here in Florida, and we met for dinner, and I told him about this. 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:30.440 And he's like, you should have launched like two months ago. 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:31.440 Don't worry about those bugs. 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:32.559 You have a great app. 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:33.519 Why do you care about this? 00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:36.240 You're overly perfectionist, and he is very direct. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:37.878 So he just picks his mind up. 00:28:37.878 --> 00:28:44.400 And I had this very uncomfortable feeling, like, I know he is right, but I have so much resistance. 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:45.839 I want to object. 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:48.799 But I know he is right, so I keep my mouth shut. 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:58.200 Listening to him just drained me so much, but then after I digested everything, it helped me come to terms that the mindset has to change. 00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:01.359 In a way, I am thankful for this crisis. 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:04.400 I don't know if it will make us better or worse, we don't know, right? 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:05.759 We can predict the future. 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:12.920 But I feel like it got us out of our comfort zones, and we are going to do things differently, and that in itself is a huge reward. 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:13.440 Right. 00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:26.480 I think in hindsight, we should have been planning to do a extended open beta anyway, with lots of bugs, while building a community of people who like the app and getting feedback from them. 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:31.079 We were just trying to keep it very closed and secretive, I think. 00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:45.640 Open beta also allows us to probably get closer to our users a little bit, because I think we can add things to the app that direct people to our subreddit, which we'll talk about in a minute, which you may not necessarily want to do in the same way in the public app, 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:47.759 because it caters to kind of a bigger audience. 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:53.640 We can do more in your face, hey, if you want to leave feedback, click here, kind of user experience. 00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.839 For now, while we are in open beta. 00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:02.000 So we have created a subreddit, it's Metacast app, and we'll link to the subreddit from this episode. 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:18.159 What we will be doing is for every app release, we will specify what are the new features, maybe add some screenshots, the no limitations, add the known bugs, and also we want to encourage users to create feature requests and bug reports in the subreddit, 00:30:18.159 --> 00:30:20.679 or just having discussions about podcasting apps. 00:30:20.679 --> 00:30:24.519 Well, stuff that is going to be relevant for us is a feature request, I guess. 00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:26.559 So yeah, that's going to be very good. 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:35.319 And one thing that the Rassoul said that I really liked, he's like, you need to, three or one redirect your bad reviews from upstored to the subreddit. 00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:39.000 And while you are in open beta, there is no upstored. 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.679 So there is nowhere to leave a bad review. 00:30:40.679 --> 00:30:44.880 And if somebody comes to the subreddit and writes a huge rant, well, that's great. 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.480 I mean, that's the whole purpose of a beta, right? 00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:48.319 Exactly. 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.079 Yeah, that gives us the input that we can use to improve the app. 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.480 Whereas if they do this on the upstored, it's much more difficult to rectify. 00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:56.400 I really like it. 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.000 So where should people listening to this join the subreddit? 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.559 Yeah, just go to subreddit and search for Metacast app as a single word. 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.160 Or go to the show notes for this episode and click link. 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:08.880 Right. 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:21.359 I think this shipping it immediately into open beta also forced us to basically re-evaluate all the priorities we had for all those 50 things that we talked about. 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:26.240 Yeah. Basically what we did is let's stop all feature work. 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.039 We had one PR that was in the almost done state. 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:31.599 It's a stuff for removing the account. 00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:33.799 And if you've got fixes that can't be did. 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:39.640 But everything else we just pulled the plug on for now, we just want to do a couple of security things. 00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:43.480 So the security best practices because we want to make sure that we don't get hacked and all that. 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:52.119 And the other thing that's very important is we want to be able to enforce app upgrades in case maybe we discover that there's some abuse going on. 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:56.960 And we don't want the users to use the feature anymore in the old version of the app. 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:03.559 So yeah, we were going to integrate with the package that basically doesn't allow you to use the app if we say that you have to upgrade. 00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:12.200 So that just gives some extra protection for us because when it comes to transcripts, and just overall infrastructure, there is money involved that we have to pay and we want to protect ourselves. 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:17.359 Because ultimately, even though it's a beta from the feature perspective, this is an open beta. 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:26.000 And that is a huge difference between closed and open is that you don't necessarily can trust everybody who's going to get this app now. 00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:35.638 So they can get the app, decompilate, look at what's actually happening, the network requests, and try to reverse engineer things and do malicious things. 00:32:35.638 --> 00:32:39.159 So yeah, those are the only things I think we're focusing on at this point. 00:32:39.159 --> 00:32:43.000 As soon as that's done, we're going to declare open beta. 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:49.398 Right. One of the bigger blockers for us to launch in the app store was also the need to integrate with payment. 00:32:49.398 --> 00:32:51.119 So we can offer subscriptions. 00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:53.519 Because again, running this app is not free. 00:32:53.519 --> 00:33:01.599 Right now, we pay almost nothing, but at scale, not only significant, like medium scale, that will already cost us probably hundreds of dollars to run per month. 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:06.119 We need to be charging for this, or we will have ads for free users. 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:11.480 But integrating with all of that would take another few weeks, and we just didn't want to wait for that. 00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:17.000 So for the open beta, actually, the entirety of the app will be free, at least for now. 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.240 Which means people may do abusive stuff, which we don't want necessarily with them to do. 00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.159 We want to protect from that. 00:33:23.159 --> 00:33:25.839 One part of beta is Apple. 00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:29.599 I think Google also doesn't actually let users for the beta anyway. 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:32.799 So there's no point in doing all that work right now. 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:37.959 And I think at the scale, at max, we can have like 5,000 users. 00:33:37.959 --> 00:33:42.719 But at 5,000 users, if we get to that, I know we'll get to it within minutes. 00:33:42.719 --> 00:33:50.039 But even if it takes a few months, I think we'll get some good data about what our costs are and all that. 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:55.039 A more realistic data than we have right now with 15 to 40 users right now. 00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:59.279 Which you can count the number of dollars it costs us on a single hand right now. 00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:00.960 But that's probably not realistic. 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:02.200 That would be great. 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:03.839 We will add a tip jar. 00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.559 I'm going to borrow from Christian Celix Playbook. 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:13.639 And whenever we post an update for what's new in this version and all that, or some bug fixes, we will just have this. 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:15.759 If you like this, consider tipping us. 00:34:15.759 --> 00:34:16.800 Supporting our work, yeah. 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:18.480 We need to figure out the wording for this. 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:19.960 But yeah, we'll just use buy me a coffee. 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:21.840 They take whatever 10% cut or something. 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:25.440 It will also help us validate the buildings to pay for the app. 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:26.278 Hopefully. 00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:29.440 Save somebody every now and then drops us 5, 10 bucks. 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:30.599 It'll be nice. 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:33.920 So this concludes this topic. 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:35.440 Can you want to add anything? 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:41.280 One of my favorite things working at AWS and just building in general is hearing from customers. 00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.679 A lot of times it's a bug that's kind of a mystery. 00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:45.960 You're like, what's going on here? 00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:48.159 Because it's almost always an edge case. 00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:53.280 If it were obvious, then your integration tests or unit tests or something would have caught it. 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:59.280 So I'm just incredibly excited to hearing from customers or users in this case. 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:07.039 And I'm just really hopeful that our subreddit community is strong and kind. 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:08.840 Not trolls. 00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:12.039 You're hoping for too much from Reddit. 00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:14.000 Can this be the most strange for Reddit? 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.320 Let's see. 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:15.880 I know. 00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:19.760 This is my first real experience with Reddit. 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.239 So yeah, there is some trepidation as well. 00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:32.918 I think what we can hope for from the subreddit is actually an engaged and honest community, which is what you typically tend to get in Reddit. 00:35:32.918 --> 00:35:36.719 You brought up a very important point about customer versus user. 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.159 The way it works, let's say, for Facebook. 00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:41.759 So users don't pay anything to Facebook. 00:35:41.759 --> 00:35:43.159 I mean, most of them. 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:45.878 They are the product and then customers are advertisers. 00:35:45.878 --> 00:35:51.559 It's almost like Facebook has these users that are like cattle that have been sold to supermarkets that sell the meat or the butcher's. 00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:54.559 I mean, I'm exaggerating, but that's essentially what it is, right? 00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:57.759 So users are the mercy of the company in a way. 00:35:57.759 --> 00:36:00.079 For us, we have aligned incentives. 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:02.639 Our users are our customers. 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.278 Users will be paying to use the premium features of the app. 00:36:05.278 --> 00:36:08.000 We are not going to resell the data anywhere. 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.759 We are not even going to collect more data than we need to collect. 00:36:10.759 --> 00:36:13.199 And we always want to keep it that way. 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:19.199 I feel like from that perspective, listening to our customers will be really gold because they are paying. 00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.199 They don't make decisions. 00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:23.559 But ultimately, they will help us build a better app. 00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:35.119 Plus, I think we have been hearing maybe every week or so one or two people will get back to us with their wish list or tell us that why something is not working for them. 00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:39.398 Last few weeks, at least consistently, Ilya, we've been getting feedback from customers. 00:36:39.398 --> 00:36:59.239 But I think getting to this open beta means this thing that we have been using ourselves consistently for a while, we're going to be able to battle-tested with a much bigger number of people to see if it also works for them or not, while getting great data points about 00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:06.320 prioritization of those 50 things that are remaining, which ones are the really important ones to get to next. 00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:08.760 So, I think you're a very good example, right? 00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:16.480 When we first were building the player interface, we had a sleep timer on it because every other app has a sleep timer. 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:21.880 But then we needed that space for something else, so we dropped the sleep timer because we're like, who use the sleep timers? 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:24.519 Why would we listen to a podcast while going to sleep, right? 00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:26.559 So, the three of us didn't have any concern with that. 00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:29.519 Actually, the two of us, I think, Jenny, hasn't joined yet. 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:33.199 And then we said this on the podcast as well. 00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:35.320 I said it in the user update email. 00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:40.719 And then somebody writes, actually, no, I do follow sleep with podcasts because I listen to whatever white noise or something. 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.199 It's not even a podcast, it's just in the format of a podcast. 00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:50.239 And then our good user, David Kudus, if you are listening, he gave us a lot of feedback as well. 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.199 And yeah, today he sent an email that he actually likes to follow sleep with podcasts. 00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:54.199 He needs a timer. 00:37:54.199 --> 00:38:01.318 So that kind of thing, which we sort of arrogantly thought was not needed by anyone, is actually important, at least to some users. 00:38:01.318 --> 00:38:04.079 And that's what user validation helps to do. 00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:13.599 Okay. So, let's wrap this up with a last segment that we always have in our podcast, which is, what are we reading and listening to right now? 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:14.759 Let's start with Jenny. 00:38:14.759 --> 00:38:21.759 I have been listening to an audio book called Broken Code, which is kind of behind the scenes at Facebook. 00:38:21.759 --> 00:38:28.519 So it connects with what Ilya said about selling a product versus selling user data. 00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:31.798 Very well researched, excellent, interesting book. 00:38:31.798 --> 00:38:36.519 I said earlier that my family watches the We Are I show. 00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:41.838 One of the people on it is a person named Jonathan Van Ness. 00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:44.199 And they have a couple of podcasts. 00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:48.159 There's one called Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness. 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:50.360 And they just have a lot of different topics. 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:55.599 So some of them I'm not so interested in like something about how do you put on makeup or something. 00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:05.119 But if I look at the title, about half the time I'm into it, I'm also reading a book for young people called The Wanderer. 00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:07.159 And I'm reading that at night with my daughter. 00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:12.278 It's by Sharon Griech, who is a newberry award winning author. 00:39:12.278 --> 00:39:17.639 And it's about some young kids and their families sailing a ship across the sea. 00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:19.199 And we live by the ocean. 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:20.838 So it's fun. 00:39:20.838 --> 00:39:22.398 What's the skewer I show? 00:39:22.398 --> 00:39:23.679 What platform is it on? 00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:25.079 How do you spell it? 00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:27.480 It is on Netflix. 00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:32.719 It's like the word queer and then the word I. It's five people. 00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:34.759 One does a home makeover. 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:40.239 One does hair makeover, food, culture and fashion. 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:41.519 They each have a different thing. 00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:47.000 And it's kind of like a makeover, but it's emotional and it's really good. 00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:48.599 It's since season eight. 00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:54.719 And it's a reboot from a show I think from the 90s called Queer Eye for the Straight Guy from Bravo. 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.239 I guess I also recommend that for a TV show. 00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:00.480 Yeah, that's why I asked like that sounded interesting. 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:02.000 We let it to the show notes. 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:08.199 Yeah, or if you listen to some meta cast, you can just take a bookmark and share it. 00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:09.920 That segment specifically. 00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:12.800 All right, Ilya, let's go with yours. 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:15.719 So I have not listened to many podcasts recently. 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:20.039 I've been listening to Alex Harmoji's podcast called The Game. 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:28.079 And I think what he does, he was on either other people's shows or it was some kind of like consultations that he did with people. 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:34.840 They almost like rapid fire, 15, 20, 30 minutes dialogues where people ask him questions and he responds to them. 00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:39.159 It's mostly around service businesses because that's his background. 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:44.360 But he's just so systematic about the frameworks and how he thinks. 00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:45.798 I love listening to him. 00:40:45.798 --> 00:40:51.519 I discovered him maybe less than a year ago and I just can't consume enough of what he says. 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.798 He's very similar to Navale Ravi Kant, but probably much younger. 00:40:54.798 --> 00:40:57.559 And also Navale is more conceptual. 00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:00.719 He's like mentioned many times that he likes Navale. 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:04.440 He took Navale's concepts and he talks about them very tactically. 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:14.798 Like if you need to have a salesperson, yeah, the yeah, the yeah, the and even though we don't need this, but I still pick up some conceptual cues that might be helpful for us, especially for marketing. 00:41:14.798 --> 00:41:15.798 He's really good. 00:41:15.798 --> 00:41:17.880 So it's called The Game by Alex Harmoji. 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:20.639 I read The Elements of Style by William Strunk. 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:22.798 It's a classic on writing. 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.760 In 18 or 1920s when it was published for the first time, 100 years ago, he stood the test of time. 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:33.119 It made my writing more assertive, lovely book, 64 pages, amazing book. 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.280 Wow, it's only 64 pages. 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:40.320 Yes. Because he teaches you brevity and he walks the talk. 00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:46.280 I'll also be listening to Learning Spanish with Paul Noble, I'm about four hours in, because I'm learning Spanish. 00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:49.880 Thanks to, thanks to, to our Navale. 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:51.880 Yes. You're welcome. 00:41:51.880 --> 00:42:01.159 I'm complimenting this book with Duolingo, the Duolingo teaches you more of the vocabulary, and this book teaches you more of the fluency and confidence when speaking. 00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:08.480 So I just walk around in my neighborhood, listen to it in my headphones and talk out loud, because it's Florida at 9 or 10 pm. 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:09.960 There is nobody out there. 00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:12.360 So I can just easily use the communities my playground. 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:20.400 So and the very last thing that just came to mind when Jenny said, you know, mention the kids book, I really got into the comic series called Bone by Jeff Smith. 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:26.679 I don't know if you read it, it's about this creature that looks like a human, but it's kind of white looking made out of bone or something. 00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:30.199 I don't know the origin of it, but it's eight or nine comic books. 00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:31.440 It's like fantasy. 00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:37.679 So those bone creatures mix with humans and they help them and they're dragons, they're lock hosts. 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:39.800 So it's a lot of adventure there. 00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:43.280 What really grabbed my attention for the first time is when I saw the cover in the library. 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:50.798 Neil Gamer himself, who wrote Sandman, so he said that Jeff Smith can hold the joke to keep you turning the pages or something like that. 00:42:50.798 --> 00:42:51.798 I'm like, wow. 00:42:51.798 --> 00:42:54.798 So if Neil Gamer says this, I have to check it out. 00:42:54.798 --> 00:43:00.798 And I've been reading with my younger one, he doesn't understand it because he's too young for this, but I like compress. 00:43:00.798 --> 00:43:04.880 I know the meaning and I just tell him this story, but you look at pictures together. 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:09.278 And it's one of those old comic books that are nothing like dog man comics. 00:43:09.278 --> 00:43:16.119 They are drawn really, really nicely, probably by hand on paper back in the day, because it's from the 90s. 00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:18.519 So yeah, I can't recommend this enough even for adults. 00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:21.119 If you like comic books, that's an amazing comic series. 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.239 I'll piggyback quickly on the Paul Noble book. 00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:29.480 So that learning Spanish and there is a second thing called next steps in Spanish. 00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:30.480 Awesome books. 00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:33.000 I was telling you earlier, but I'll say on the podcast too. 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.559 I think you'll say possum books. 00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:36.559 Awesome books. 00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:39.199 That's the name of a publishing company. 00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:44.079 Talking about possums, dual, lingo, gives you, I feel like the vocabulary. 00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:45.079 I don't know. 00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.079 I'm probably about 2500 words. 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:48.639 And those words stick to you, right? 00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:55.079 Like you immediately remember once you have practiced it enough with dual lingo, what they mean in what context to use all that. 00:43:55.079 --> 00:44:03.159 What it doesn't give you is the ability to have a conversation enough, fluent way with a person who speaks Spanish. 00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:09.798 And I think this is where this book shines is it's all about conversations and the confidence that you get out of it. 00:44:09.798 --> 00:44:15.360 So Paul Noble is actually a language professor somewhere in the UK I'm forgetting. 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.760 He has these two books for Spanish. 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.920 There's a book on French and Italian and Japanese and all that. 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:29.519 So if you're learning any language and you want to very quickly become conversational in it, I'd say pick up those books and dual lingo. 00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:38.000 And coming back to the stuff that I'm reading, since both of you talked about stuff that you've been reading with your kids, I'll start with that. 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.199 So we have the other podcast, right? 00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:45.119 Builders gonna build for the episode three of that, which when is that coming out? 00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:46.119 The 14th of February. 00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:47.119 I think. 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:58.920 Right. So the episode of Builders gonna build podcast that's going to come up on 14th of February, the third episode is with one of my all time favorite science fiction authors called Dennis Taylor. 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:00.559 Dennis E Taylor. 00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:04.920 And he has an amazing series called Bobby verse as well as a few like short, this thing. 00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:09.639 If you want to listen to the full thing, go listen to our Builders gonna build podcast. 00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:18.519 But because we were interviewing him on Monday, which was the 29th of January, I felt like I want to prep again. 00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:25.559 I listened to a few podcasts with him and I heard a few things in the Bobby verse books that I had not considered before. 00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:27.519 So I started listening to it again. 00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:36.159 But this time with my daughter, some of the sci-fi is a bit, I think, too much for her to grasp right now. 00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:45.599 But I am having a pretty cool bonding moment over that to trying to explain what a guppy interface is and what are these cryogenics and all that. 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:50.000 So in fact, you've replicated it into her. 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.239 So yes. 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:54.838 So that's the thing that I'm listening to or reading. 00:45:54.838 --> 00:45:55.838 It's a book. 00:45:55.838 --> 00:45:59.719 The second book is a book called Eleanor and Park. 00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:09.358 It's a beautiful kind of 1980s story about two kids in high school struggling in the own ways, but bonding over it. 00:46:09.358 --> 00:46:10.358 Beautiful story. 00:46:10.358 --> 00:46:11.358 I've read it. 00:46:11.358 --> 00:46:14.880 I don't know, maybe like 10, 15 years ago, but I had completely forgotten about it. 00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:18.119 I was going through audible, saw it and I wanted to pick it up again. 00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:23.838 And then podcasts wise, not much recently because Australian Open was going on till last weekend. 00:46:23.838 --> 00:46:25.278 I was out of sleep. 00:46:25.278 --> 00:46:29.838 The only thing I was listening to was that any spot cast I've kind of wrapped that up. 00:46:29.838 --> 00:46:33.159 It was a beautiful, awesome Australian Open. 00:46:33.159 --> 00:46:39.679 Really other than Jokovic wanted after like a decade, even though I'm a big Jokovic fan that was fantastic to see. 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:42.039 Cool. So it's a good segue. 00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.519 Unlike Australian Open, we are going to be doing a global Open Beta. 00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:47.960 So imagine when you can't be enjoying. 00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:48.960 There are no winners. 00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:50.119 We all need together. 00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:52.119 It's not a zero sum game. 00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:55.278 Yeah, you can help us build the app. 00:46:55.278 --> 00:47:12.079 Well, first of all, you can download the app, go to metacast.app and depending on whether we ship or not, by the time this episode comes out, there might be either a link to download it on Apple or Google or there will be a field where you can put your email. 00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:16.878 And the moment the app comes out, we will send you an email that it's ready for you to try. 00:47:16.878 --> 00:47:21.878 And yeah, join our subreddit at reddit.com slash r slash metacast.app. 00:47:21.878 --> 00:47:23.480 The link is in the show notes. 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:29.639 Yeah. And if you want to say hi, just send us an email at hello at metacast.com. 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:33.358 I've been holding that in. 00:47:33.358 --> 00:47:34.358 We'll focus. 00:47:34.360 --> 00:48:00.079 All right.